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The JOY Podcast: Episode Eleven

Live from Detroit: The JOY Podcast, Chad & Cheese, Crazy and The King, HR Famous Mashup

The Podcast


This special edition of The JOY Podcast series took a decidedly different turn: a mashup of some of the TA community’s most listened-to podcasters. Led by Debbie Tuel live from the Detroit JOY Roadshow stop, the group was made up of Joel Cheesman and Chad Sowash from Chad and Cheese, Tim Sackett of the HR Famous Podcast, along with Julie Sowash and Torin Ellis from Crazy and The King. 

As one would expect, the subjects they tackled were wide-ranging and touched upon the current recruiter shortage, diversity recruiting and even how where an organization is geographically located can impact the candidate journey and experience. 


Joel: [00:00:16] Aw yeah, what's up, everybody.

Chad: [00:00:19] Oh my God, it's Cheesman.

Joel: [00:00:23] I thought you were stopping me. I was on a roll. I was on a roll. Oh, ok. You felt like it was like the 1970s rock station vibe.

Chad: [00:00:37] This is this is good stuff. So, ok, so who is at the table today? We have a crossover podcast.

Joel: [00:00:45] This is exciting. This is going to be a bomb on the podcast universe.

Chad: [00:00:51] A good bomb.

Joel: [00:00:52] Like a cherry bomb.

Chad: [00:00:53] Ok, I like that. That's better. That's better. Ok, ok. Should we go around the table and everyone introduce ourselves?

Joel: [00:01:00] Yeah we're going to show up on a lot of different podcasts where people don't know you, me, our audience doesn't know some of these folks. So I'll go first. My name is Joel Cheesman of the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

Chad: [00:01:09] And I'm Chad of the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Debbie: [00:01:13] You've got Debbie Tuel here of The Joy Pipeline podcast,

Tim: [00:01:17] Tim Sackett of the HR Famous podcast,

Julie: [00:01:20] And Julie Sowash of The Crazy and the King podcast.

Torin: [00:01:23] Bringing up the rear, breaking records. Torin Ellis, Crazy and the King. I am the King.

Debbie: [00:01:31] I mean, we have quite an audience today.

Chad: [00:01:34] We'll just stop right there. That's good enough. We got all the people. OK, so we're all here in Detroit for a reason. There's this this whole joy road trip thing that's going on. They got like this ice cream truck thing

Debbie: [00:01:47] We call it a roadshow. We're on a roadshow. The roadshow is roadtripping? I mean, we are taking the truck on the road. We started in Dallas. We are here in Detroit. We are going to New York City. I have just learned that we may even get to meet the mayor of Baltimore on this trip. Come on now. All right. No, this is this is going to be big and then we're going to take it overseas to London. How we get the truck there? Good question. I'm thinking not the same truck.

Chad: [00:02:13] No, I think it floats.

Tim: [00:02:16] Yeah, that's a great idea.

Chad: [00:02:17] You need the mic, Tim. Tim's a rookie.

Joel: [00:02:20] The reason we're in Detroit is Tim Sackett and our proximity to him.

Tim: [00:02:23] I was saying, like, instead of like the joy ice cream truck, you know, you could just have like one of those London taxis, like the cool ones

Joel: [00:02:30] Or double decker bus?

Tim: [00:02:30] By the way, the first time I ever go to London, we got talked into taking that taxi from Heathrow into London. That's one hundred eighty dollars per person. Well, ok great.

Debbie: [00:02:38] And there is a train that takes you the exact same distance very fast and much cheaper. Lesson learned.

Joel: [00:02:44] But when you're stars like Chad and Cheese you get the limo service from the airport, just saying.

Torin: [00:02:49] Didn't they get filmed the last time that they were over in London, like somebody was with a camera with them in the vehicle and all of that? 

Julie: [00:02:57] The guys over at Talent Nexus. 

Chad: [00:03:00] Talent Nexus. Well, so let's break it down for us. We're going to talk about Europe. We're going to get there, maybe Asia PAC and whatnot, because, I mean, you guys are going...you're roadtripping.

Debbie: [00:03:10] We are road tripping. On the roadshow.

Chad: [00:03:12] On the road show. Ok, so here in the U.S., we actually we had a great discussion yesterday with Tim, and Tim was talking about how hard it is to find recruiters. Why do you think that is?

Tim: [00:03:27] No. In fact, you know, like Danielle Monaghan, she's at Uber. Is she still at Uber? She's moved around, she was at Amazon and I think she's at Uber now running TA. She had made a comment, she's never heard like twenty five years of leading TA teams has she had a harder time finding recruiters. And then there was another stat out on Twitter this week. There's actually more recruiter openings right now than software engineering openings. You know, I think the pandemic obviously teams got lean and then all of a sudden I'll have to hire again real quick. Software engineers, they didn't really get let go like that. So they kept working. They just worked at home, you know, so we had this bubble of hiring. But, you know, a lot of people were like, hey, I don't want to go back in the office. You can recruit from anywhere. Yeah, but the recruiter experience for most of these people are terrible.

Chad: [00:04:10] Well, Debbie, let's talk about recruiter experience, because at Symphony, you guys have to focus on that. That's a big piece of...

Debbie: [00:04:19] Yeah, they are our end users, right? The recruiters are the end users of our software. And I think oftentimes we do forget the end users. We have a focus as the industry on the candidate, and we forget that the person that's delivering that candidate experience is the recruiter, oftentimes in conjunction with the hiring managers and others. But we need to build software that is easy for them to use and then we need to connect the software together with the other tools they're using so that it's a streamless, you know, it's an easy work stream for them and you guys have seen it. In talent acquisition technology. We haven't done a great job of that. We build tools in silos. We don't make it easy. Everybody thinks their tool is the best. And so they're like the recruiter should be using my tool. And so they're going, yeah, they're going to log in to my dashboard. And it's like, oh, no, what is their system of record that they should be in every day that they're measured inside of for their performance? And then how do we get the rest of the technology that's going to make their lives easier, all embedded into that one piece of tech.

Joel: [00:05:23] So if I could go back to Tim real quick and maybe other people have opinions on this, why is there a shortage of recruiters? Are they having a heart to heart with themselves and saying, I don't want to be a recruiter anymore? What's going on?

Tim: [00:05:35] Well, I think there's a number of factors. One, we just missed: she just created a brand new marketing term that we'll be using for like the next two years. She was going to say seamless. She said streamless. And yeah, now every HR tech company will be like, we're streamless. Oh, my gosh. It's amazing. What does that mean? No one knows. No one cares. Exactly. Someone's going to use that. I'll tell you HR tech will be there in a few months. And someone will be like, we're streamless, and I'll be like, I can't believe you stole Debbie's term. Two million women still not in the workplace right now. Still from the pandemic. Think of the recruiter like demographic. It's much heavily more women. So there's there's a part there, right, where a lot of them have to go home. They got to do child care. They got to do all these other things. And they can't just recruit.

Chad: [00:06:17] Is the experience, I mean, does that prospectively push them out, too? Because it sucks. Let's say, for instance, from a process standpoint, having 27 tabs open, do you think that has any impact on whether your job sucks or it's joyful?

Tim: [00:06:32] Yeah, no, I think that whatever tech you have and I think we're a lot of people found was like, hey, you're a recruiter, you got shoved home and now you have to continue to recruit. And they didn't give you anything that worked really well. Yeah. And it became a major pain for you to actually produce and do as well as you were in the office for whatever environment they had. So I think that's one, Joel, back to your question. You know, is women, obviously not in the workforce as much and we're hoping that returns. The other piece of it is I think there's some leveling up going on. Right. I think recruiters go, do I really want to put up with this crappy job? Hiring managers don't respect me or hey, by the way, I can go make the same money doing something else. Torin, you talk to me.

Torin: [00:07:14] I didn't want to cut you off, but I just think that, you know, with you starting with technology as the primary consideration and then the leveling up is the secondary. You know, it just reminds me of how many people think that there's some sort of fairy dust to do diversity and inclusion. Yeah, people think that they could bring fairy dust on in. The technology is going to make them necessarily a better recruiter. And it's not to suggest that technology is not important because it's very important, but it's not a fairy dust solution that we're looking for.

Debbie: [00:07:41] No, you always go back to like people process technology, which comes third? Technology. Right. Let's focus on the people. Let's get the process in place, and then let's find the technology that matches that process. And oftentimes we find people trying to take the shortcut and go straight to technology. They miss the other two and they fail big time. And I think it goes back to what your question was, is we do have a problem of women leaving the workforce. We also have a problem of burnout. And they're burnout because of exactly what Tim mentioned. We've got less recruiters. They've got higher req loads that they're working on. And then it goes to the usability right? They're burnt out of all of this tech. They're supposed to be using...what they're measured on changes monthly based on what they just bought or what, you know, some vendor came in and told them they should be measuring.

Joel: [00:08:28] It sounds like they don't need new tech, they need more support as a mother, raising kids and getting to school and worrying about those issues as Julie...

Debbie: [00:08:36] Rolls her eyes.

Joel: [00:08:37] Shakes her head. Maybe she should chime in on this issue. Should companies be giving more support to women in order to fill those recruiting spots?

Julie: [00:08:44] Yes, we should be relooking at our benefits. Our flexibility with them. Why should a woman come and work for me? And I can tell you we're hiring at Disability Solutions right now and I'm working with our recruiters and they are uploading they're using 10 different tools. It's completely inefficient and it's causing delays for me, but it's causing my really talented recruiters to be exhausted. And they can't possibly help me find great diverse candidates if they're exhausted and they don't have that time because they just don't. And then on top of it, we can't get the data that we...

Torin: [00:09:19] Did she just say diverse candidates again?

Julie: [00:09:20] I did. Underrepresented candidates.

Torin: [00:09:25] Hey, I will tell you that there's a piece of this that I work with TA leaders on, who constantly come in and say, hey, I want to see three, four or five pieces of data. And they look at me, with like deer in headlights. Like, I don't know if we have that. Let me see. I think I think we can pull that out of our ATS or whatever. And but here's what happens with not having that data as a TA leader, because all of a sudden, hiring turned on for every industry, every market within the U.S., obviously it's different around the world. And the CEO comes in and says, hey, by the way, we were going to hire one hundred in August. Now we have to hire 500 and they go, ok, we'll just work harder. Work harder is not a sustainable strategy. No, you have to have the process, the technology, the people, all of those things in place. But if you don't have data, you can't go and say, hey, by the way, Mrs. CEO, we're never going to make that happen. Here's our capacity right now. Yeah, and you're asking for this capacity is not going to happen. And so they don't do that. So you just go and you beat on your recruiters. You can whip them a little bit harder. Right. And by the way, short term, it works. You can whip a recruiter and they'll produce more short term and then they totally burn out, fall off the cliff and quit.

Debbie: [00:10:33] And they have more opportunities because everybody's short staffed. So guess what? They are being recruited too.

Chad: [00:10:38] Recruiter roles abound. Right. So do you think that the recruiter experience, Debbie, some of your clients, how much different is it for them working in the U.S. versus Europe, knowing that you have to interconnect all of these countries much different than obviously interconnecting states? I mean, language issues. I mean, there's just...what's the recruiter experience for somebody, one of your clients, in Europe versus the U.S.?

Debbie: [00:11:09] Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. I actually think we do a better job of the experience in AMEA than we do here in the States.

Chad: [00:11:18] How so?

Debbie: [00:11:20] There's a couple of things that play into that. One, their compliance issues are a little bit different than ours. And so there's less hurdles to jump through for the recruiter and getting a candidate in their pipeline and into their process. The other thing that's different is they can be a little bit more forward thinking with the brand and the way they represent themselves in the process, which would then go to market from a brand perspective and they tend to be ahead of us in that aspect. And then third, they are still really heavy on third party contingency firms.

Chad: [00:11:55] Very much, yeah. It's a flip.

Debbie: [00:11:57] They are. So it's an interesting kind of switch over there. You see more of the employment brand, recruitment marketing being done in-house and the actual recruiting being done outside of the house. And so you look at the recruiter experience differently over in EMEA, at least for our customers, than we do here in the States, but they tend to be a little bit easier to service.

Chad: [00:12:21] Are you working with staffing firms?

Debbie: [00:12:23] We absolutely do work with staffing firms. We work with a lot of...we tend to do more business with the RPOs, because they tend to be, you know, focusing on how they support a specific client. And a lot of our technology is geared towards specific clients, but we we work with it all. But I'd be curious to hear from the rest of the group, if you guys are seeing that too, if you think that's the case in EMEA or other things that are different?

Chad: [00:12:49] All the languages and whatnot. But here in the U.S., we're putting so much money into DEI over the last few years. Right. We talked about this last night, at dinner Torin. Do you see a difference in Europe and their DEI outreach? Does that mimic what we're doing here in the U.S.? Do they care as much? Are they paying attention to what happened with George Floyd and really the momentum?

Torin: [00:13:14] So first and foremost, I always want to kind of shy away from the George Floyd reference only because when we think global, I don't want people to build their strategy and considerations around North American centric issues. And so I try to force clients that are global to think global, if you will. So I don't minimize George Floyd. I just try to make sure we don't center George Floyd, number one. Number two, when we think about DEI, yes, they're concerned, but they are like five, seven, maybe even 10 steps behind where we are. Yeah, as it relates to DEI, like, I can give them some strategy from 2012, 2014, and they're like, yo, this is like a steak dinner. And I'm like, literally this is something I said a decade ago. And I'm not minimizing where they are. I'm not being judgmental about where they are, but they really are ten steps behind us. But I think the one thing that I found interesting and what Debbie just said, is that it's easier to get the candidate in the system. Even with GDPR, it's still easier for them to get the candidate in the system.

Debbie: [00:14:17] You got to remember that GDPR is all about keeping them in the system, not getting them into the system. It's giving the control to the candidate of, hey, I have opted in and I want to stay opted in. But they don't have to go through any EEOC questionnaires. They don't need to worry about any of the compliance aspects of it. I mean, it kind of goes to the fact that they are ten steps behind us. I don't know whether it's good or it's bad, but they don't have to ask for as much information from a candidate to get in. Do they need a little check box of I consent? Absolutely. But even that can be done later on in the process.

Joel: [00:14:54] Interesting. Question about budgets. And I think from our perspective, we hear a lot about companies creating budgets for diversity and inclusion. You guys live this every day. What are companies really doing in terms of dollars and cents to make a change?

Chad: [00:15:09] And are they making a change?

Julie: [00:15:11] In short, they're not making enough change.

Joel: [00:15:16] Does that mean enough money? Or enough...?

Julie: [00:15:16] So let me speak specific to disability, so we're seeing, finally, an investment in our community. We doubled our number of clients in 2020 during the pandemic. We're able to have a really strong conversation about the importance of intersectionality and understanding that we are a part of every community.

Chad: [00:15:36] Make sure we understand what intersectionality means for the listeners.

Julie: [00:15:39] Yes. So I am a white woman who has a disability. Torin is a black man who is a veteran. Black women in America have the highest, I'm sorry, black women with disabilities have the highest unemployment rate and also the highest pay gap in the country. And it's at the intersections where companies really need to find those opportunities to make a difference. So, yes, investment is happening, but it's still too much at the: let's just do a training. Let's just, you know, kind of check that box. It's still not a strategic part of the recruitment and talent acquisition process in the way that it should be. And until that happens, we're not going to be to the place where we're good to go.

Tim: [00:16:20] Let's get back to the recruiter experience on that issue alone. We want to talk about why recruiters are burning out because they're saying, hey, by the way, go find us some people with disabilities that we want to hire. And they're not experts. They're not experts, and they're not giving you any resources. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and you guys will see this obviously on the Symphony Talent side when I go in and meet with a company and we talk about budget numbers and let's say just randomly, they're spending a thousand dollars a month on recruitment marketing, which is super light, I would come in and for the most price, you're probably 10 times lower than where you should be. If you're at a thousand, you should be at ten thousand. If you are ten thousand, you should be one hundred thousand. And they look at you like, I'm never going to get that. And I'm like, well, then you're not even playing in the same ballpark as the teams that you're trying to compete against.

Debbie: [00:17:02] Absolutely. You know, I find it so fascinating that a lot of companies have invested in chief diversity officers and usually they have zero budget. And it is striking. 

Joel: [00:17:12] Did you say zero budget?

Debbie: [00:17:15] Zero budget and zero headcount oftentimes.

Chad: [00:17:16] Damn!

Joel: [00:17:18] Sorry, is that just again, I hear a lot about checking the box. Is that just a check box strategy to say, see, we have a head of diversity, leave us alone? Yeah, that's sort of the strategy?

Debbie: [00:17:29] Yes, from what I have seen. In my experience.

Torin: [00:17:31] Some ways, Russell Reynolds put out a report in March of 2019 and the report is titled Finding Your Next Chief Diversity Officer 12,18 pages in length. But the salient points in that report, number one, are that most chief diversity officers are under-resourced and they are under-supported, underfunded, like seminal findings in the report. And you can find that from Harvard Business Review, McKinsey, Deloitte Catalyst, Boston Consulting Group. It doesn't matter. So part of the checking of the box really is, what can we do public facing that simply says we've put a Band-Aid on it, we're doing it. And for most people, Joel, it hinges on unconscious bias training.

Chad: [00:18:15] Optics. So you said it earlier today. I heard you say that the focus should really be outcomes oriented, right? Hiring, retention, promotion. That's what we should be focusing on as opposed to all this money that's spent. And companies are pretty much just pointing at the bottom line saying, well, we spent X for training or we're using X tool for DEI. Right. But there's no outcomes associated to it. I mean, why are we focusing on outcomes, should we be?

Torin: [00:18:45] Well we absolutely should be. But again, it's the prescription that so many people are looking for. They think that if we just bring Julie in because she focuses on people with disabilities, that magically we're going to begin to do this thing the right way. Intersectionality, as Julie said, it is so many different layers of whatever it is. So Julie only gave you two, she said a white woman and has a disability. She said, an African-American male who is a veteran, but father, and this, and the intersectionality is incredible. And so when you really think about doing DEI the right way, you got to break the thing down and say there's no best practice that's necessarily going to to work for me or for our organization, that we have to find something that is really germane in how we do it here. It's going to work for how we do it, right?

Tim: [00:19:32] Yeah. Corporately, there are two fundamental things that are foundational: is think about who's actually creating those metrics to be measured against. It's the people doing the job. They want to be successful because that's how they bonus. So they're never going to create a measure that is going to push them to the point where they don't get paid. They don't get paid. Yeah. So they they're going to create sites where they're having success.

Chad: [00:19:51] They get paid though, if there were outcomes?

Tim: [00:19:52] And also the CEOs in the C-Suite are going to look at those and say, well, wait a minute, we don't want to actually measure something that we have to report on that makes us look bad. So, yeah, those two foundational things that they're working against all of this.

Debbie: [00:20:05] Well, and I keep laughing, as you say, outcomes, because in order to measure your outcomes, you have to have a baseline and the majority of them don't have the baseline.

Chad: [00:20:14] They do, but they don't want to share it. It is there. They do not want to share it.

Torin: [00:20:19] Plausible deniability.

Chad: [00:20:20] Yes, exactly. Exactly. So, Ok, Debbie, how many companies are coming to you today? Because today DEI is the new AI. Everybody has it. Everybody wants it. Right. How many companies are coming to you looking for that DEI silver bullet?

Debbie: [00:20:36] Every single one of them, they are. And they are looking for a silver bullet, I will say, it is typically a bullet of their requirements list. It is not what is leading their evaluation, but they are looking for a silver  bullet. And I am also seeing in the market in general, a lot of vendors that are saying they are the silver bullet, that they are going to assume diversity of candidates. And I feel like we are going down a very, very slippery slope in that regards. So yeah...

Tim: [00:21:15] You know, it's one of the big ethical AI issues that we're facing in recruiting technology right now is that the A.I. where we can't ask somebody, hey, Torin, are you black, are you disabled or whatever? But the A.I. has enough data. They can they can pretty close figure that out with a high degree of variability where they're going to go, hey, we know he's a black veteran and that's where they're coming up with this stuff. But the problem is, is you're going wait, wait, wait a minute, we can't ask that stuff, but the A.I. already knows it. And then they're going to assume.

Debbie: [00:21:45] Yeah, and now you're assuming based on name. I mean...now everybody's shaking their heads right now.

Joel: [00:21:52] It wasn't that long ago that Facebook got in trouble for allowing companies to target certain demographics that got them in big trouble. And now they have to ask questions about job postings. So I think part of the question is like how soon before we get in trouble? How soon before we're Facebook or we're HireVue analyzing facial? Yeah, I mean, like I think it

Debbie: [00:22:11] The list goes on and on.

Joel: [00:22:12] Build the technology around this because we're going to be in trouble at some point.

Debbie: [00:22:16] Now, on the flip side, there are things we can do, right? We can start by taking baby steps of looking at the language that we're using and is there inherent bias in it? And let's fix that. We can start by doing things of like if we are marketing to groups, are we using imagery or employee stories of likeness to that group that we're trying to attract? We can look at are we doing employee resource groups that are supporting the audiences that we want to attract to make sure that once we do get them in the door, they're going to feel like they're at home at this, you know, place of employment. But very few of what I just mentioned are silver bullets. Right? It's a collective group. It's making sure that you're focusing on both what is the attraction strategy and what is the retention strategy.

Julie: [00:23:01] So it's a strategy that gets implemented. It's not a one off. It's not a piece of tech. It's not AI. And that's the thing about Facebook. I had a call with the EEOC commissioner last week. And I said, look, the thing about Facebook is that the answer was to cut off the opportunity to target. That was the wrong answer. And so as we think about as tech experts, as diversity experts.

Chad: [00:23:27] How is it the wrong answer?

Julie: [00:23:28] Because we used it to target job seekers with disabilities and get them fucking jobs!

Tim: [00:23:33] That's a problem, they were like, we're going to take it away because people could use it for evil. You know what? We could use it for good too.

Chad: [00:23:41] Is knee jerk. Well, that's where audits come in and you have to actually watch what's happening and they don't want to watch what's happening

Joel: [00:23:48] Or you take away the options of targeting by age and you only make diverse candidates in the target.

Torin: [00:23:53] No but again, what Julie is saying is we want to be able to target by age in a good way because ageism is an issue. So we want to be able to go after candidates applicant's prospects that are 50 and older.

Joel: [00:24:05] Maybe I framed it incorrectly. So take away the restriction of age. So to say I only want 25 and under, like, make that impossible to do...

Chad: [00:24:16] No, make it auditable. If you want to target that, that's great.

Tim: [00:24:18] Call out the evil, reward the good.

Chad: [24:22] They're responsible for how you're targeting and creating your workforce. Right. And then you have to be more transparent about your workforce.

Tim: [00:24:29] Because if I'm an employer and I like I have all these young people and I want to hire someone that's over 55 or whatever that might be, I want to be able to target that advertising for good. But if I'm doing it in my data shows that, hey, I'm only hiring people under 25, then I should be called off.

Chad: [00:24:45] You have to target people that have that are following the Led Zeppelin page

Tim: [00:24:48] For sure.

Joel: [00:24:50] Yeah, that's the way of Facebook, because Facebook from Facebook's perspective, for them to just tell the media, oh, well, we just get audited. So don't worry about, that's a hard thing for them.

Chad: [00:25:00] They should self audit and companies should self audit. That's the problem. We don't have enough transparency to be able to demonstrate what we're doing and what we're not doing and it's not mandated. So therefore, we have all these companies who are trying this whole optics bullshit game of spending money and they're not actually demonstrating what their workforce looks like.

Joel: [00:25:20] How would Facebook audit?

Speaker2: [00:25:22] I didn't say Facebook. I said the company. Right. The company has to be auditable. It should fall upon the company.

Debbie: [00:25:29] So if I'm using Facebook, Facebook should have something that is maintaining the searches that I'm running for a two year period that I can then pull into for any audit and most job boards have this when you're running searches across them, most technologies whether to

Joel: [00:25:44] It wouldn't be searches, it would be advertising it, but who am I targeting?

Debbie: [00:25:46] Either way, this is you are placing an ad. Yeah, you're placing an ad. And that should be saved and auditable.

Chad: [00:25:52] You have to be defendable when you start to get into this, when you start to get into this conversation.

Tim: [00:25:57] This is what I love about having four podcasts, because when you go everywhere and this is like if we're at a conference like we are here for Symphony Talent in Detroit and we are sitting around having a cocktail or coffee, this is the conversation and how it goes.

Chad: [00:26:12] Yes, yes. Well, I first off like to thank Debbie and Symphony Talent for having us all here, Chad and Cheese obviously. Crazy and the King. Tim, we came all for you, big boy. And so it's all about you. But thanks so much. Any any parting, parting things that we should know, not just about Symphony Talent, but what's going on with the the roadshow?

Debbie: [00:26:36] Yeah. So if you have not joined us on this roadshow yet, first of all, they've been wildly successful and that's in large part to our audience, our customers, our prospects, people like yourselves joining in. And we're going to continue the road show. And our our goal is to continue this roadshow here domestically, internationally, and taking us all the way to our final return of a live Transform in 2022. Oh, for those that don't know, this is five years. And so everyone that is joining us on this podcast got a five year robe. And Torin & Julie, you haven't actually received yours yet, but you do have one. They're they're pretty legit. Maybe for happy hour tonight. We all pull out our robes.

Joel: [00:27:26] Oh it's that kind of party? No party like a Symphony party.

Debbie: [00:27:30] So join, us, go visit thejoypipeline.com where you can find all the details, you can register. But I appreciate you guys all getting together, this was a lot of fun.