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The JOY Podcast: Episode Eight

The Power of Prediction

JOY Podcast w Tracey Parsons

 

Debbie Tuel, Chief Joy Officer, Symphony Talent, hosts Tracey Parsons, President at Parsons Strategic Consulting and founder of startup WORQDRIVE on this session of the JOY Podcast.  Each podcast episode, Debbie hosts various talent acquisition professionals to discover how we can best marry tech with joy to create a better recruiting experience for all.

In this conversation, Tracey shares her insight on how companies are tackling internal mobility and what we, as an industry, can do using data and analytics to improve retention. Add in the right tool recommendations from Debbie and hear how you can better predict what you, your candidates, and employees need for a better experience. 

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Debbie [00:00:00]: Hi, and thank you for joining this week's episode of The JOY Podcast coming to you from TA Week this week, where we get to shine a light on how global organizations are getting people back to work faster and with an exceptional experience. My name's Debbie Tuel. I'm the Chief Joy Officer at Symphony Talent, a global technology company that is leading this industry wide movement and partnership with our customers and industry analysts and thought leaders alike. And it's a movement that we are calling The Joy Pipeline. And we are so glad that you are here to join us on this Journey of Yes. If this is your first time tuning in, and you're wondering what is The Joy Pipeline? Our mission in this podcast is really to help recruiting teams, both bring the joy back to recruiting and empower them to deliver exceptional experiences that both the candidate and the recruiter need now. And this week at TA tech, I am joined by one of my very favorite people, Tracey Parsons. Tracey, how are you doing today? 

Tracey [00:01:04]: I'm doing great. Debbie, like it's summer, which is my favorite time of year. And, I'm just, you know, getting to spread some joy. Are you kidding me? Like my first favorite thing in the whole world. And if any, if I got any Ted Lasso fans out there, you know, I feel like Danny Rojas, mucho, mucho joy. So I love, I love what you're doing and I'm so happy to be part of it.

Debbie [00:01:25]: And you know, this is for those of you that are listening or joining us from TA Week, you may not know, but Tracey, you are the foundation of the joy here at SmashFly/Symphony Talent. You started this Transform movement back in, gosh, what, 2015ish. Tracey and I got the pleasure of working together at SmashFly from about 2015 to 2018. And if you don't know her, Tracey is a builder at heart. We are going to talk about some of the things that Tracey has built, Transform being one of those that I've gotten an opportunity to step in and take it to the next level with The Joy Pipeline. And we've got so much goodness to share with you guys today. So we're going to, we're going to jump right in and talk about kind of that evolution of Transform to The Joy Pipeline, to what you were doing today with work drive and internal mobility. Are you ready? 

Tracey [00:02:28]: I'm super ready. Let's go. I feel like I'm in the hot seat, but I'm ready.

Debbie [00:02:32]: You were in the hot seat, but first I am going to share a little bit of story with you guys. A bit of a personal story, because I am not a runner. And I have some really good friends that somehow convinced me that we should sign up for this half marathon and give ourselves a goal and an objective. And I'm like, I have no idea where to start. So I download an app, that's going to output a training program and I tell it where I'm starting and what my goal is. [And you know how often I'm willing to work out a week. How quickly I can run a mile, which I don't even know, cause I'm not a runner. Anyways... and it outputs this 12 week training program for me to get ready for this half marathon and the four friends that I'm doing this all did the same thing and our output is completely different. It's giving us a roadmap for success because each of us is starting this journey from a different starting point with a goal of getting to a similar end point of actually crossing the finish line. But each of us have different goals in that journey. And so if, I think back to 2015, I feel like SmashFly was at a very similar place where we had built technology that could service talent acquisition and recruitment teams from those who knew nothing about it, to those that were experts at it, but we didn't give them that app or that training program to get them from the starting point to the end point. And. Welcome Tracey Parsons. This is where we brought you in. We had these foundational learnings of... it didn't even matter if you were an expert, you needed to know where do I start in this tool and how do I get to really excelling at recruitment marketing within the tool. So if you wouldn't mind, share for our listeners today, how you got brought into SmashFly, kind of what your vision was for success in bringing it to life.

Tracey [00:04:29]:  Yeah. So I love that. I love that story. So I will, I will tell you if you need any marathoning tips, I've actually run three of them. I don’t run anymore. I’m tired.

Debbie [00:04:38]: God bless you. 26 miles seems aggressive for me, I'll start with 13. 

Tracey [00:04:44]:  You know, bravo! Um, which you know, is the, is the real kicker in a row? Um, yeah. And so now I'm thinking half marathon. Damn, Debbie go. My relationship with SmashFly some people don't even know this, and I'm not sure people at SmashFly knew this. My relationship with SmashFly began well before I joined the company. I actually brought SmashFly one of their initial customers. So I started my consultancy in 2008 and our first customer was DaVita and DaVita was looking for a better way of doing job distribution and tracking. And I had sat through somebody's webinar on something and heard about SmashFly. So I did the old school thing of like picking up the phone and calling the number. And I was like, Hey, tell me about your tech. What do you guys do? Can you do this? This is what my customer is looking to do. And lo and behold, a marriage was made and I worked with Jessica to implement it back in the day and to Mike and you know, early, early on. And so that was amazing. And I kept in touch with the trajectory of the company and I saw the CRM coming. Great. And my background's in marketing and I just fell in love with the recruitment marketing space because the... I just... It happened the other day somebody was interviewing behind me at lunch. I was having lunch at a restaurant. Somebody was interviewing to work in a kitchen and they were interviewing and the hiring manager walked out and they offered him the job on the spot and the kid walked out and he was like so joyful. And I literally threw my arms up in the air at the restaurant and was like, Yes! I love when people get jobs. So it took my marketing love. So I kept in touch with SmashFly and when I was seeing what you guys were doing. And I really got tired of like chasing customers down for invoices. I called Mike. I was like, what are you guys working on? I've been paying attention. What are you doing? And he was like, would you want to come like do this with us? And I was like, yeah, I would. And then, um, he had me have a call with Ted Ruscitti. Ted interviewed me and they literally offered me the job, like the restaurant guy, like same day. And I started the next week. Um, 

Debbie [00:06:54]:  And you had the same joyful moment of like, yes! 

Tracey [00:06:58]: Right. In fact, I remember going upstairs to tell my husband, I think, I think our lives just changed a little, um, because of what SmashFly was doing. And it was so aligned with what I believe. So, get into SmashFly and we decided that we're going to tackle this from the inside out. Right. So how do we become better recruitment marketers as an organization that is at 150 people as we were. How do we become really good at this so that we can carry that knowledge out to the rest of the world? Right? How do we master this first? And so that was the real foundation of Transform - is helping our own employees understand their role as a recruitment marketer. And I went and did a talk at the company meeting in Florida, where I made everybod just say over and over again, “Yes.” To any question I answer, ask them like, are you a recruitment marketer now? And nobody said anything. I was like, okay, are you a recruitment marketer? The correct answer is yes. And then I waited so long that somebody eventually said, yes, I was like, that is so good. How about the rest of you? Right. So then I got to start working with some of the customers. Once we started getting this mastery internally, start working with some of the customers and the genius leadership team pulled me in and they were like, would you mind kind of, you're a practitioner. Would you mind telling us from sales, marketing service, you know, implementation across the board, what it's like, and then just give us like a real honest assessment of what it means to go through the SmashFly continuum of “Interested in SmashFly” to “Using SmashFly.” I was like, okay. So I did my due diligence and that's what I do for customers now. And it's what always, I like audit it. Like, what is it like? Um, and so you mentioned I'm a builder, right? And so I'm looking at this as if it's an opportunity to blank slate something. So if I were a customer, if I were a recruiter, here's what I would want to see. And here's where we are excelling and here's where we have opportunities. And one of the huge opportunities was around education. And so one of the immediate offshoots of that conversation with the leadership team of the “Hey here's, where we're winning and here's where we really have opportunities” is our big opportunity is to absolutely upskill an entire industry. And, and like many things that just come rolling out of my mouth. Um, somebody was like, we should totally do that. I was like, oh my God, they mean me. 

Debbie [00:09:30]:  They mean you. Like, can you do this? 

Tracey [00:09:34]: Hey, Tracy, go do this. I was like, okay, well, cool. So then, you know, got together with all the people in marketing and education services and sales, and worked with a variety of teams to design a curriculum. And I'm not a curriculum designer. But luckily we have those people, I just know what, the thing that I know. Right. And so how can we take the thing that I know in my brain and break this up into bite-size chunks. And I remember when we were rolling this out in the pilot, we piloted it internally first, like everybody at SmashFly got their certification because they had to, you know, listen, listen to my schtick as I practiced it. In fact, I think my husband's going to get his CTRM too, because he heard it so many times. 

Debbie [00:10:16]: I mean he already has it by osmosis. He might as well formally get it. and I am a proud CTRMer, um, so thank you for my education in recruitment marketing. It was well worth it. 

Tracey [00:10:29]:  Oh, thank you. Well, whenever I see somebody on LinkedIn with the little comma CTRM I'm... 

Debbie [00:10:33]: Like a proud mama moment. Proud mama moment. 

Tracey [00:10:37]:  That’s so cool! That was the thing I said in passing that it became a thing. So that's kinda how it started. And, and, you know, at the same time, um, the marketing team was working so diligently on creating the conference and this all kind of worked into this perfect storm of Transform. Right. So I think we had the conference and then we had the certification. So it was, it was shortly thereafter that we started rolling that out. So the audience was already, hungry from that crazy amazing first conference moving forward. I know Robins was there. And then, so we had this, we had this momentum and, and people participated, like, I think the first class that we ran had 1100 people in the first class, um, which I was blown away. Right? 

Debbie [00:11:24]: Absolutely. And, and it was, you know, there are multiple recruitment marketing certifications that are out there today. We were the first to launch it to the market. It was education that was needed, which is why everyone was so hungry for it. And I think one of the things that you really established in the core of what we do and what we continue to do as a business is it's not just about delivering the education. It's about establishing a baseline really early on with our customers and the people that we're working with. So we know how to custom plan  to that baseline and future growth. So share with us a little bit about why it’s so important to create that base. 

Tracey [00:12:07]: Well, and that's, that's one of the first things that we started talking about when we were working on the class, like we were working on the curriculum. It's like, how do we know where to start? So out of that came a maturity model. Like it was, it was, it's amazing what happens when you get really smart, passionate people in the room to talk about something that everybody genuinely cares about. Right. That's how real change is made. And so we started talking about this like, well, again, like your marathon training, you're starting from step zero. What about people who already have a team in there? So we started looking at that maturity model and developing the curriculum to correlate with that. Right. So if you're just starting out, here's your basic blocking and tackling. If you're just getting to that next level where you might actually have a dedicated resource to recruitment marketing, here's the things that you need to be learning and up-skilling on. And then if you're expert, here's how you take it to the next level.

Debbie [00:13:03]:  And these are all things that can be applied in so many different ways, but it helps to really custom build that plan. It helps to tailor that conversation that everyone feels like they're winning that it's, it's achievable to get to that end result that they are alongside their peers in achieving it. And then pair it with the right software that can help them achieve that goal. And that's where you find that gold. And if anyone is still doubting, you know, that type of connection that Tracey has with her customers, I love that you've spun that into the next level of creating your own podcast with one of your former customers. Nw peers, Allyn. So, if you haven't listened, how can they find your podcast? 

Tracey [00:13:48]:  Oh, this is going to be fun. I think it's well, we, we rebrand it. So we were initially the Recruitment Marketing Rebel Cast. And now we have realized that that might be, we're talking about more stuff we're talking about the full talent life cycle. You can find the information that talent, talentrebelalliance.com, where you can get like all of the pods. So talentrebelalliance.com is where you can listen in Allyn and I wax poetically, and not poetically about the state of candidate experience, recruitment marketing, employer brand, internal mobility, everything that touches a human person that has talent. Yeah. We're talking about that. 

Debbie [00:14:31]:  Amazing. So, Tracey, you came into SmashFly, you created this foundation for education. You worked with our customers to get them into that maturity model. You worked with our customer success managers to help them educate their customers on what they needed to do to succeed. That has been the baseline for foundational growth for us at SmashFly. And it really came to fruition with the acquisition by Symphony Talent saying, Hey, look, they're doing amazing things. And now we have the best of two worlds. Right? We've got amazing tech. And we've got amazing creative services to kind of double down on that approach of talent acquisition. And it's been fun to watch you say, okay, I built this baby and I've watched it grow. And now I am ready to send it off to grow on its own. And I'm ready to move on to the next project. So tell us a little bit about WORQDRIVE and the project that you're working on. 

Tracey [00:15:28]:  So it's, it's really funny because life has stops and starts. Isn't it? Like it's all stops and starts. And I do this weird thing whenever I start a job somewhere or a project, I kind of make a note like, this is what I hope to achieve. Like, it's this kind of north star for me. And I did that at SmashFly. And when I, when I looked back and I go back to it every quarter, every six months to go, okay, am I closer, right. Do I need to adjust? Is the north star moving? And there's a moment at every job I've ever had where it's ticked off. Right.  And I feel like, like you said, it's time to let it's time to let that, that bird go fly. But oddly enough, right before I joined SmashFly, I had a startup that was trying to reimagine the resume as visual and anonymous. Fun fact people can't imagine their work visually and we couldn't figure it out how to make it easy. But a couple of companies in the time that I was at SmashFly reached out to us and they were like, we want to acquire the code base. And I was like, why would you want to do that? That doesn't make any sense. And then we went back and looked at our roadmap and we were like, they want this for internal mobility and. Our, that was third on our roadmap. We wanted this for internal mobility if we got there. So as I was exiting SmashFly like going back to consulting and starting to redesign candidate experiences for customers, because that's the thing that I wanted to build next. I saw a huge data gap with how internal employees interact with experience versus external candidates. Big, big, big chasm of a gap. Initial customer who was working with us, we redesigned their candidate experience and they were converting 54% of their career website visitors to an applicant, which is great. Like, it tells you like this thing that we designed for them they're in for like, they do it that we've, we've got the friction spots in the right place. But when we were in the data on the internals, it was 11%. And so I went to the customer is like, you have a problem. Like they don't, they want to be treated differently. And oddly enough, I have a bunch of codes sitting on a shelf that could solve this for you and we built it. And so really what WORQDRIVE is, is it's trying to take internal mobility to that next level. Right. So internal mobility, a lot of people are like, we have internal mobility, we have an internal job board. And here's how you, if they're not converting on your internal job board, because you already know that, right? Why are you putting them through the process that you designed for somebody else? And we should design a new process for them. There's two problems that we're trying to solve here. One, how do people find the next job at their company. Right. Cause most people don't know where to find that. And if they do know where to find it with that internal job board, there's like, no thanks. And the other one is companies have no idea what skills they have in house. And we saw this manifested a couple of years ago when Sherwin Williams had a kid that took over Tik ToK mixing paints, and he was really passionate about digital marketing. But they thought he was commandeering the brand and they let him go. And guess what? He's doing brand work at another paint company right now. 

Debbie [00:18:46]: If you guys have never heard this story go Google it. It is fascinating. 

Tracey [00:18:52]:  So it's all about hidden figures, right? You don't know who's in your company, you don't know who has, what skills you don't know where your skills gaps are. So how do you train somebody to do this? At the same time your employees have no idea where to find their next job. So that's what our solution solves. It basically is the warehouse for all of your employees, skills that they are telling you how they feel about them. Do they love it? Do they want to grow it or do they find this to be a core strength? Right? And then we match them to jobs you already have open. On the flip side, we allow recruiters to source for your current open jobs, or even based on skills. But we anonymize your employees to protect them, right? Because we know the name of the game with internal mobility and internal mobility software as adoption and humans don't adopt what they don't trust. Right. And a lot of people don't trust the systems anymore. 

Debbie [00:19:43]:  They’re scared to raise their hand in fear of retribution from their current manager, or, you know, what is it going to look like if I'm exploring another opportunity and what's that going to mean for my current safety, um, in my position. Right? So that's a great feature to add, to make that anonymous so it can be safely shared and explored. 

Tracey [00:20:03]: Yeah. And we try to make it, so we put a consumer grade interface on it. Like I remember working with that first customer and they were like, well, what's your training plan for the software? And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, well, you're going to have to train people. I was like, well, hey, may train you how to use Facebook. And she was like, no. And I was like, then you shouldn't need training on this. Like, although we did have a very funny instance that happened just this past week. One of our customers was demoing the software to somebody else in the company. And they literally clicked, apply on WORQDRIVE in their WORQDRIVE. And our apply feature is a one-click apply. So she applied to the job. Then she did it again. So she applied to two jobs and she calls me yes. Monday she's like Tracey, I got applied to jobs. I'm like, okay. So we went and, you know, supported it and I was like, hey, by chance, were you demo going on this day, this day, at this hand and this time. And she was like, yeah, I'm like, then it works. This isn't an error, but what it ended up happening was she applied then the hiring manager, like she got some good to the hiring manager...

Debbie [00:21:19]:  He's like, I love it. Yes. Call her in.

Tracey [00:21:24]: Or give me this person. Right. And I was like, so on the bright side, it totally works on the downside. We may have to add a little modal that says, Hey, by the way, are you sure you want to apply for this job? Because people aren't accustomed to being able to apply with one click and we're allowing them to do that despite all the warning messages on it. But yeah, it's one-click apply and then the cool analytics features, so we can show you where your skill gaps are, where your opportunity gaps are. And at this moment in time, we're actually tying into an LMS. Um, so if you see that there are growth opportunities in your company and people want to grow with that skill, you can send them training directly to their WORQDRIVE and they can access that training from their tool. 

Debbie [00:22:06]:  And this brings in so many different components, Tracey, that we know are a missing gap right now. And that talent acquisition leaders are looking at saying, okay, I've got a CRM now I've got my ATS. I've got my learning management. I've got my employee review software. How do I bring all this data together to fill this gap of making it better and easier process. And so it would be so much fun to watch this journey that is, you know, growing exponentially as you guys grow WORQDRIVE you, you mentioned something about usability. And how you don't need to be trained to use Facebook or Instagram, or maybe they'll just, you know, give you a quick little, like three screen walk through on it. And that's something that is so core to how we build product at Symphony Talent. And we talk about it a lot within The JOY Podcast of if we want to create joy for recruiters. We need to have simple to use technology, something that makes their lives easier, that adds value back to their day that they want to use the software. And so it sounds like that is core to what you guys are doing as well. Share with me some of the findings that you just shared one great story. Right. But as you're talking to your customers, how much does that usability play into adoption? 

Tracey [00:23:29]: It plays into it huge. So the percentage of people who start their WORQDRIVE account to close their work drive account is in the high nineties, which is unheard of. Right. It's a five step process and we're pulling all their data in. So there's nothing worse than creating an account. If we're going to be honest, that is legitimately one of the most annoying things that we make humans do. And I have a story because the other day I had to park my car and the car parking meter was an app and honest to God, it took me 20 whole human minutes to set up an app

Debbie [00:24:10]: You're like, I just want to throw a quarter in this and go on with my day. 

Tracey [00:24:15]: Like, just make this stop. Right? So setting up an account for me is my it's. It's one of the things that I actually will be doing in hell, I'll probably be doing that on a treadmill, um, surrounded by snakes, right? So this is what I'm going to be doing in hell. In case you guys are want you're setting up accounts. So when we started designing the UX for WORQDRIVE, I made the statement to the team. I was like, Look, our setup is going to be confirmation, not creation. We do not want you to have to create anything. We want you to just go. Yup. Yup, yup. Click. Yep. Right. Just simple. Clicking of that is correct. Yes. This is my experience. That is correct. You can obviously add things right. But we want it to be confirmation, not creation because that is how you get people from point A to point B. We do things, simple things like logging on, right? So if you log on to WORQDRIVE, we do everything based on employee number, which can be confusing for employees. Right? Cause they don't know what email is associated and because we have a very stringent security process and infrastructure because this is employee data, right? It's got PII in it. And we want to make sure that they're protected and anonymized. So when somebody does put in their employee ID, if it's an actual employee ID, we tell them great put what email this went to. So they know, right. But they'll be able to extrapolate. We've thought these things through. So that painful part of getting set up is way less painful. We do something simple, like pulling in their current job and their current location. First, like on their first screen, we want to know what do you aspire to be? What do you want to be when you grow up? And you don't have to put anything in. So that's the other thing. There was no error messaging. You could leave everything blank, right? You've got to think about how the humans want to get through this. Now, if they don't put anything in and they get to their job matches and they’re crap, which they probably will be because we don't know what to match to. We give them a little, you know, hey, you might want to put some stuff in here and it'll be better. 

Debbie [00:26:32]: And Tracey, this is bringing back to all of those conversations that we have been now having for years around the candidate experience. And I, I love that kind of approach of, we don't need to create let's confirm and we need to do the same thing on the external and the internal. They need to be different experiences, but we need to make exceptional experiences on both sides for your external candidates, your internal candidates, and for the recruiters that are trying to do all of this work and consider both audiences and that it is core and foundational to everything.

Tracey [00:27:12]: It is core and foundational to everything. Right. And when we think about the experience for candidates, because trust me, I still spend a ton of time on that. Um, when we think about the candidate experience, where do you put the friction? It should not be friction-free. I actually remember giving a talk when I was working at SmashFly at a conference that candidate experience should be friction-free. And like two weeks later, I put out a blog post on SmashFly’s blog was like, hey, I was so wrong about this. And here's why. 

Debbie [00:27:39]: Because friction-free equals volume over quality. 

Tracey [00:27:44]: And there has to be friction to make a decision, right? Because you have to make a decision and the candidate has to make a decision. But when you're designing an experience, you have to find the hero. Who is the hero in this experience? Is it the hiring manager? Is it the recruiter? Is it TA, is it the sourcer? Is it the candidate? who is it? The correct answer is the candidate. Right. And if you make them the hero they show up, but it shouldn't be friction-free. But we should not at the same time, put all the friction in the application. 

Debbie [00:28:19]: Absolutely. 

Tracey [00:28:21]: Right. That's not where all the friction needs to be. 

Debbie [00:28:26]: Oh, Tracey. I could go on and on. I wish there was not a time limit on our segment today, but unfortunately, there is. So luckily everybody that is tuning in today can find us both on our individual podcasts and we'll have to come together and do this again. But before we do close out today, we have to do one of our listeners' favorite segments. It happens to be mine too. Cause I get to, I love listening to the war stories of the field, but it is Candidate Recruiter Confessions, where you get to confess to some good juicy stories of either recruiting talent or being recruited. So I will let you choose and, share with us one good recruiting war story. 

Tracey [00:29:10]: Uh, so I can, I can tell you about the time that I was recruited to a firm and it was the most elegant, amazing, well thought out, well, I was the hero in the candidate experience for once. And this was years ago, like this was, I want to say, '07, but they got this dialed. Right. And I know what I know. I know this one thing is one thing I know. And so I did all my research too. I was like, okay, is this for real? Is this legit? Are these people real? What are they doing? Hey, customers. Former employees, current employees, what do you know about this company? We're talking about it. Everything was beautiful. Went through this. We went through a day-long interview. They flew me in, had a realtor drive me around, like the whole thing was just stunning, stunning, and I bought new shoes for it, which is always a win for me. So go through this experience, they offered me a job. It's more than I wanted salary-wise. It was a full relocation, right? Perfect. I loved it. I was so happy. Okay. So I show up and I'm about a month into the job. I'm like what happened to the place that I interviewed at? Legit. I quit nine months later, I quit nine months later. And after that, and subsequently, I have written a blog post asking for mostly tongue-in-cheek lemon laws in recruiting. We should not be able to present ourselves as something that we're not to candidates for them to only leave nine months later and then give them the job hopper title. That's not fair. So yeah, lemon laws and recruiting, it's an airy blog post. It cracks me up every time because I'm mostly serious, but not serious at all, if that makes sense. Um, because yeah, now  I'm in a completely new city and I did not get the job that I was sold. 

Debbie [00:31:05]: Ah, and so nine months later you had to relocate the family again.

Tracey [00:31:10]: No, we ended up staying. 

Debbie [00:31:12]: You stayed. Good. At least there's some silver lining there too. There is a huge silver lining that you have enough self-awareness to say, hey, look, this was not for me. And let's move on to the next thing. No hard feelings, 

Tracey [00:31:27]: Girl. Bye. And then I got to start my company! 

Debbie [00:31:31]: And look where it's taking you. I love it. Tracey, you know, as always it is a joy having you on today. It has been a joy speaking with you today. I think we have added a lot of great insight for our listeners today. If you had one piece of actionable takeaway for those that are tuned in today, that they can take back with them to bring joy back into the candidate, the recruiter, the employee experience one small one, what would it be?

Tracey [00:32:03]: Okay. This is an easy one. You guys have all been candidates. Okay. So what I'm just going to ask everybody to do is be the person that you needed when you were a candidate. Be that person.

Debbie [00:32:19]: Let's repeat that. Be the person that the candidate needed when you were a candidate. Yes. 

Tracey [00:32:26]: Be the person you needed when you were a candidate.

Debbie [00:32:31]: Easy. Easier said than done, but I think that's an easy one for us to think about and apply, print it out, post it up on your wall and think about that every time that you're speaking to the candidate, are you, are you, you know, doing the golden rule of treating everybody like you want to be treated. 

Tracey [00:32:49]: Yeah. Be who you needed.

Debbie [00:32:52]: Thank you so much, Tracey. And thank you for everyone. That's listening. If you want to join us on this Journey of Yes, you can visit us at thejoypipeline.com. Follow The JOY Podcast on Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And until next time, thank you so much for joining us and Tracey, thank you so much for joining us on the show today.

Tracey [00:33:14]: Thank you, Debbie. It’s a joy.