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The RM Podcast: RM + Marketing: A Match Made in Heaven

Symphony Talent
February 8 ․ 68 min read

Valentine's day has us thinking: what’s the perfect match for recruitment marketing?

About 5 years ago when recruitment marketing really took off, we saw organizations implement new recruitment marketing roles responsible for translating EVP and brand pillars into candidate-facing campaigns. These recruitment marketing and brand associates were responsible for communicating after people began to interact and engage with the brand. 

But today these roles are more strategically placed in the marketing department and you may be wondering why?

Well, marketing is the most natural match for RM. 

As RM expands to mimic and complement traditional marketing efforts (and as it evolves to meet the current labor market trends) it advances toward brand outreach via targeted communication and engagement strategies. 

Bottom line: to win at RM you need to invest in marketing.

Debbie Tuel: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the RM podcast. I'm your host, Debbie Tuel, and I hope that you are ready for an all new lineup of experts who are itching to step out of the parameters of traditional recruitment and talent acquisition speak and get real on what it means to recruit on a worker economy and, quite frankly, an upside-down world. Let's dig in together.

Debbie Tuel: All right. No matter what you think about Valentine's Day, it has us thinking, what is the perfect match for recruitment marketing? About eight years ago, when I started at SmashFly, we were starting to see recruitment marketing really take off and organizations implement new roles that we're going to be responsible for translating the employment value proposition and brand pillars into candidate-facing campaigns, roles like director of recruitment marketing and head of employment brand. These recruitment marketing and brand associates were responsible for communicating after people began to interact and engage with the brand, thinking more proactively about building pipelines.

Debbie Tuel: But today, these roles are starting to shift again, and they're more strategically placed in the marketing department. You may be wondering why. Well, marketing is the most natural fit for recruitment marketing. As recruitment marketing expands to mimic and complement traditional marketing efforts and as it evolves to meet the current labor market trends, it advances towards brand outreach via targeted communication and engagement strategies. Bottom line, to win at recruitment marketing, you need to be investing in marketing. RM plus marketing is that match made in heaven.

Debbie Tuel: I am super excited to be joined today by two of our executives and thought leaders within our space, Roopesh Nair, the CEO of Symphony Talent. Roopesh, how are you doing today?

Roopesh Nair: I'm doing great. Thank you for having me, Debbie.

Debbie Tuel: Yes and welcome. I think this is your first time on the podcast, right?

Roopesh Nair: That is right.

Debbie Tuel: Well, I am honored to have you on. I know that our guests are going to be excited to hear what you're seeing in the market, what we're doing with our tech, and what we're hearing from our clients. We've made some pretty big shifts this year, and one of those shifts is we made a really big hire at Symphony Talent. We brought on a new chief marketing officer, Sophie. Sophie, welcome.

Sophie Leguillette: Thank you, Debbie. Great to be here.

Debbie Tuel: Well, I want to actually start with just digging a little bit into your background, Sophie. I know this was a key hire for Roopesh in this past year, and so I'm going to start with Roopesh. Roopesh, as you were looking at the market for a chief marketing officer and you first had conversations with Sophie, what got you really excited about having Sophie join Symphony Talent?

Roopesh Nair: No, that's a great question, and that also connects to what is the role of a CMO in a B2B SaaS organization in many ways. I think as we get into some of the conversations of recruitment marketing, it kind of relates a lot to that, too. As we all know, the marketing roles have evolved in the last few years and last 10 years. Specifically, in B2B SaaS, the CMO is as much a salesperson, as much as a marketing person when you think about the new B2B SaaS setup.

Roopesh Nair: As we looked at what we needed at Symphony Talent as an organization, we needed a leader who could basically put in the hat of being able to really understand the product, being able to understand the go to market of the product, and think about sales and marketing as an end-to-end cycle and also think about the customer and connect all those pieces into the product sales and marketing strategy. I let Sophie introduce herself, but that's the experience that Sophie brought in. Honestly, as we had these conversations, it was very, very obvious that she was the best choice, considering her great mix of marketing, but more focused on product and kind of thinking about how to market a really good product. That's where I think she shines. Sophie, I'll let you introduce yourself and give a little bit of background there so that people know what I'm talking about here.

Sophie Leguillette: Thanks, Roopesh. Thanks for the great words.

Debbie Tuel: Sophie may not be new to many of our listeners, because Sophie, this isn't your first entrance into HR technology, right?

Sophie Leguillette: Correct, correct. I spent a few years at SAP Success Factor, so really happy to be back into the HR space, right? Even before I start talking about a little bit my background and so on, the reason I went to HR space is also because I have three children, who are young adults now, are getting into the workforce or getting ready to get into the workforce, and it was very of interest, personal interest for me to actually be in that space as I'm seeing changing completely for our kids, right? How they join the workforce, what's happening out there. So it's great to be back, because I left the HR space a little bit. I'm back in there, so it's great to be back, great to be back at it from that angle of recruitment marketing.

Sophie Leguillette: So yes, I'm Sophie Leguillette. Always a fun time for others to say my name. So I'll help you out. It's Leguillette, Sophie Leguillette. So I was born, raised, educated in France and then came to the US for what was supposed to be a year, but turn out to be the rest of my life to today. I never used my return ticket from that first plan and then started my career in the US. So all my professional career has been spent in the technology and more specifically in the software industry, in the business solutions, per se.

Sophie Leguillette: So as Roopesh has said, right, I've developed a lot of experience in working for software and more recently SaaS company and understanding the importance of joining those three pillars of product, marketing, and sales, right, and having them very aligned, very focused towards what the company is trying to accomplish. A lot of that is also enabled by technologies, right? We've seen a lot of changes in the marketing world with the digital transformation that happened in marketing that I'm also learning and seeing in the HR space when it comes to recruiting. So really excited to be part of the team and getting up to speed as quickly as I can and with all the support from the leadership team. So very exciting time for us.

Debbie Tuel: Absolutely, and a lot of the guests that we have on this podcast come from a marketing background and have transitioned their way into recruiting, talent acquisition. So I love getting to talk to marketers. So having two marketers on the phone, because many of our listeners may not know, but Roopesh also comes from a marketing background, and Roopesh, share with our listeners a little bit about how you got into recruitment marketing, what experience you bring into this recruiting lens.

Roopesh Nair: I'm sure some people have heard this from me before, but I'll state it again. So I was a marketing technologist, one of the early people to call myself as a marketing technologist in the post-dot-com era, right? Then from there, when in late 2015 and when I got the opportunity to join Symphony Talent, the way I explained my transition from marketing technology into recruitment marketing technology is, "Hey, I used to sell to shoes and detergents, and now I'll be helping build life and sell jobs," which is basically what we have done in this industry in general. I'm sure many of us, longer than I have, but honestly I have been drinking from the fire hose in the last seven years, but also being able to, to your point, translate a lot of what I saw in marketing technology into the recruitment marketing technology space and hopefully added value here. So we'll see, and continue to add value here.

Debbie Tuel: One of the things that we've seen over the last 12 months as the market has really tightened, it is extremely competitive to find talent, and organizations are really just looking at, "Okay, what can we do to differentiate ourselves?" We've seen this idea of recruitment marketing, of brand positioning, start to become more mainstream within organizations. I'd love for you, Roopesh, to start and share with us a little bit about what are you hearing from other executives within your network that's different than what you heard two, three, four years ago?

Roopesh Nair: Yeah, and I think, again, this is probably top of mind for most of my peers and all business leaders in general. What's the remote plus the hybrid work culture, and how does that impact me getting people? How does that impact me retaining people? How does that whole future of work to look like in the context of talent acquisition and getting people up to speed quickly, right? That's basically the tone I've heard, and I've heard people talk about employer brand and employee experience and talent acquisition experience, peers who didn't have any clue of what employee experience means, I mean, other than the fact that they understand that culture is important in the company, but peers who I've known for years now starting to use terms like employer branding, marketing to employees, and then employee experience, which then connects, of course, to the talent acquisition experience.

Roopesh Nair: It's very interesting as we think about the candidate and the practitioners and all those experiences connecting together. I think a lot of my peers are appreciative of that, much more than what they were in the past. I'm sure that's a trend which is going to continue, because companies are going to transform faster than ever, and when companies are going to transform faster than ever, they'll need talent that can transform and stay and basically help transform faster than ever, right?

Debbie Tuel: Absolutely. Sophie, from the marketing side, are you seeing that as well? Has employment brand ever been on your mind as something that you should own as a marketer or that your peers should own, and is it starting to bleed into the work that you do?

Sophie Leguillette: Yeah, exactly. Actually, the latter, right? Because, I mean, first it's employer brand is still fairly new in some ways, right? From a marketing perspective. You're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah. They're doing something on the HR side," right? It's always been the HR versus the marketing, which is interesting. That's something that caught my interest as well as when I was talking to Roopesh about coming onboard and since I've been there fairly short amount of time or number of days, actually, but it's been interesting to start educating myself and starting seeing that convergence, right, when it comes the branding piece of branding a company and the employer brand. Then you start thinking about it. Very, very quickly, your mind gets, "Hang on. These are the same things, right? They can't be separated."

Sophie Leguillette: So some companies are further along on the journey. I think from a conversation perspective on the marketing side, it is becoming a top priority on the branding conversation and that employer brand coming in. So to me, it's also an interesting piece, right? Through this transformation that has happened on the marketing side, going from traditional to digital, I've seen a lot of new connections forming in the organization for marketing, right? With the sales, with product, and now starting also with CFO and now with the CHRO, right? With the HR. So it's an interesting concept that is a trend that is happening of HR and marketing working together, right? I don't see them as separate.

Sophie Leguillette: So it'll be fascinating to see ... There's a lot more research being done about it, more conversation. I know I'll be participating in this conversation to push that, because it makes complete sense to have the two together, right? It's part of the brand. It's not a separate thing. It's part of the brand. It's part of who we are, and as we said, right, and at the end of the day, the employees the consumer, the users, the patients of the brand, right? So you don't separate those anymore, and it needs to align to and the brand's values needs to align to the employees' value, right? So there, you start finding that convergence that is going to be fascinating for what marketers work together on.

Roopesh Nair: Right, and it's very fascinating, Sophie, because when you think about it from a CMO, I think it's very important for the CMO to also think about it as it is very connected, but there is subtle important differences, right?

Sophie Leguillette: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Exactly.

Roopesh Nair: For example, if you take a customer, our customer, who's a retail organization, what they sell could be shoes and detergent, let's say, right, to their end customers, but what they sell in an employer brand perspective is actually the jobs and the life, right? But the biggest, I think, point when you start thinking about it is how can it still connect to that core proposition? Whether we call it as brand proposition or employee value proposition or employer brand position, at the end of the day, those need to be connected, but then be able to suddenly tell that story in context of the individual who's trying to get into the organization and say, "Why should I join this retail organization when I am a technologist?" or "Why should I join this healthcare organization when I'm a data scientist?", which is very subtle differences, which I think a lot of CMOs like you are getting to know and getting to collaborate more with their employer brand side of peers and the HR side of peers.

Debbie Tuel: We're in the midst of Superbowl season. I remember back about three years ago, maybe five years ago, there was a commercial that came on. It was for a car company, and instead of focusing on the cars that were being sold, they focused on the employee that was selling the cars. It was this first aha moment for a lot of talent acquisition leaders that, "Hey, marketing can really help us in promoting our employment brand. This should be combined. This should be cross-functional. Guess what? Selling cars is a byproduct of the great experience you're going to have by working with our people, and guess what? You should come sell for us, because this is the type of job that you're going to get," right?

Debbie Tuel: So you always have those leaders in the market that are going to be thinking, forward-thinking, that are going to be breaking the rules. Then we see the market catch up, and I think now we're five years later. We're starting to see that become a little bit more mainstream, and many of our listeners are going, "This sounds amazing, but my marketing team's not onboard. My CEO isn't talking about this." So from a CMO, from a CEO, for our listeners' education, what can they do to help build that business case to their executives that this is something they should be thinking about, that this is something they should be collaborating on, that they should be getting the budget to run these initiatives? I'll let either one of you start.

Roopesh Nair: Yeah, and I can go first, especially kind of having seen both myself and my team work that budget and kind of think about that value proposition and pitching to me and then us and me helping our customers pitch to their executives in many ways, right? I think at the end of the day, it's about kind of stepping back and thinking about ... A CEO or a business operative will understand when I say this. When you think about, "I need to do something one time to be able to create value in a recurring basis," and when you start thinking about anything you are really doing as an HR organization, and I know a lot of us do, a lot of our listeners probably think about it that way, as to, "Hey I can do something right away to kind of go hire a bunch of people."

Roopesh Nair: We do that all the time because of the fact that some of the needs come hit us really last minute, right? "Oh, I need 50 people to run this store operations or run this hospital system" or "Hey, I need these people in the tech center, because you know what? My strategy is changing. I need this." I know that most of our listeners get hit by needs in the last minute also.

Debbie Tuel: Or, "Billy and Sarah just resigned. I need you to get me somebody tomorrow."

Roopesh Nair: Exactly. Of course, the most important thing to do is fix that and get that out there. So we spend a lot of time doing that. Of course, in that process, a lot of inefficiencies creep in, and if we step back a minute at that point, of course we need to do that. A lot of us do that at that point, but then step back a little bit and say, "All right. This happens every year again and again. These exceptions happen every year again, and again. Let me kind of look at it in a broader sense and say, 'If I invest X right now, this is going to not just change the cost of acquisition of the individual, but also change the speed at which you can bring them and also the quality at which you can bring them on, because you have had those conversations for longer,'" right?

Roopesh Nair: So I think at any point when you get hit by these one-off things, that's a good opportunity to kind of, of course, fix that, but also create a case at that point that, "I'm going to fix this. Then this is how I'm going to fix it, but this is not how I would like to fix it in the future. This is what I would do now so that this doesn't happen again," right? Those type of things, I think business operators understand or CEOs understand right away, because that's what they do every day to try to explain their strategies to the board.

Debbie Tuel: Roopesh, I know that one of your mentors is over at GM, and they're doing some of that work right now.

Roopesh Nair: Absolutely. Yeah. Again, Alan, if you're listening to it, and Alan's been my mentor all through my life, Alan Wexler. He's now kind of running the change initiative at GM, and yeah, that's exactly what they're doing. They're stepping back and saying, "Yes, we can continue to do what we've been doing. Yes, we will do that. But you know what? We are going to pick on the GM of the future, and this is what we need to do to do that." To do that, you need, of course, the products, but you need the people. You need everything together to be able to do that, and that type of change takes a lot of selling into the organization, both upwards and downwards, right? Yeah, this is amazing what GM is doing. I've been a big fan of what they've done in the last two years, and yeah, glad to see someone who I know out there so that I can get some internal intel from there.

Debbie Tuel: Yeah, absolutely, and for our listeners, go back into season one, find the GM episode with Kyle, and you can hear how the recruitment marketing and employment brand team and recruiting is tying into that initiative that Alan's driving. Sophie, from your perspective, what are you seeing? What are your inputs?

Sophie Leguillette: From my perspective, as far as a business case, right, so I would invite the HR folks in talent acquisition and recruitment marketing to go and talk to their marketing colleagues, right? Because in some ways, the business case has been made, I would argue, on the marketing side. We're doing the same thing where we're building pipelines. We're building pipelines of prospects for customers, and HR is building pipeline for candidates, right? So you have that same motion of, "Okay, let's build a pipeline from the top, bring them down, and then either close them for a contract or in this case get to an offer letter that they sign," right? There's some huge differences as far as how we go, because on the marketing side, it's like bring as many people qualified and get them, as many as you can, to sign, right, the contract. On the candidate side is, "Let's go find that pool," but they there's lots of things that needs to happen to get to very finite numbers of positions, right?

Sophie Leguillette: So big difference here, right? On one side, it's like get them as many as we can to sign up. On the other side, it's like, "No, we need the right people. We have a finite number." But some of the mechanics are the same. So I think I would encourage them to go and say, "Hey, marketers, help me make my case for building something like this," right? The technologies, of course, are different that allow the candidates to move through the pipeline, right? Through skillset assessments, the whole interview process that can be done, can be automated through the technologies, cultural fit that can be through technologies, et cetera. But yeah, I would invite them to say, "Hey, help me do that," right? Marketers have done a lot of that, as we were talking earlier, right, with the changes in marketing and the expectations for marketers in being able to be able to justify investments into ROIs, right? So the same concept, I think, applies there. So again, another reason to collaborate between the two teams.

Debbie Tuel: Absolutely, and we have been talking for a number of years that TA tech, recruiting tech, specifically recruitment marketing is three to five years, maybe even a little bit laggard, depending on who you're talking to, from marketing tech, right? That is where a lot of these systems were ideated on, is, "This is what HubSpot's doing. We should apply that to marketing or to recruiting," whatever that may be. So let's talk about bold predictions. What are you seeing today that as talent acquisition professionals, we should be thinking about of how do we not sit and wait for three to five years? How do we execute on this now? How do we get a leg up on our competition by following some of those marketing trends that are happening in real time?

Roopesh Nair: Yeah, and I think I'll make a prediction on what recruitment and talent acquisition should learn from marketing. I also think there's a lot which marketing can learn from HR, which I think I want to talk to also, because I'm hearing a lot more about quality of the customer and product-led growth. When marketing and sales does that, I think there's a lot you can learn from HR, because quality of the candidate and the quality of the person who you hire is a big deal, and there's a lot of lessons, I think, the product-led, growth-driven strategy of marketing can actually really learn from there. I'll get to that in a minute, because I'm pretty passionate about that. I know, Sophie, you and I have talked about it multiple times about how to drive the right customer into the pipeline, just like people think about driving the right candidate into the pipeline, right?

Roopesh Nair: But again, one thing I think marketing has done really well, and 16 years ago, when I used to talk to marketing execs about technology, they would be like, "Oh, you mean" ... They would bring basically a fancy Adobe Photoshop, and they're like, "Yeah, we use a lot of technology to make this picture." That's the best technology they knew about at that point, and now marketing leaders are highly technology-savvy. Basically the best CMOs, I think, are people who are able to bring in the right stack, right, to really drive the marketing and having the right marketing operations to drive everything else. A lot of the decisions, as we all know, has moved to the bottom of the funnel, right? To right at the end, and hence they have kind of learned how to really use technology to the benefit of the marketing team.

Roopesh Nair: Also, marketing teams have become more technology marketing teams, like marketing technology teams, like people who know HubSpot or people who know Salesforce or people who know 6sense or whatever. It's become much of that type of thing, right? I think that has started to happen, of course, in HR and recruitment marketing specifically. I think we have, of course, matured in the last six, seven years. A lot of our competition has matured, and along with that, I think the organizations have matured also to how to use these platforms.

Roopesh Nair: But I do think there's a lot more work, right, which can be done on really not just buying a technology, but really thinking about the adoption of the technology and really using it to the point that you structure your teams to really be able to use that technology to your advantage, figure out what are the roles of your recruiters, because you don't want them spending time on something which automation can do for you, but at the same time, have them spend time on the most valuable things they need to spend time on. How does that human and machine work inside the organization? I think there's still a lot of thinking I think technology organizations like ours can provide to the practitioners and practitioners can collaborate with organizations like ours.

Roopesh Nair: I think marketing has matured a lot, just because they have had a longer time period running through this in the last ... They had 20 years. I think the evolution of marketing started in 2000, 2002, post-dot-com. That's when everyone started using more of that marketing technology angle, and I think recruiter marketing I would say is more 10 years max, maybe. So I think it's just a maturity curve of the recruiter marketing setup. But I think adoption, I would say, is going to be a big factor and how people do work using the marketing technology, the recruiter marketing technology is going kind of evolve. I think a lot of our customers and our peers and asking that question on, "Hey, how are people using the platform?" I see more and more practitioners asking that question, which is great because I think that'll help people redefine some of the roles inside the organizations and really evolve to really make use of technology.

Sophie Leguillette: Yeah, and very similar point from my side, right? I'm seeing that maturity of the organization, as far as the definition of the roles, right, and what each of the roles is doing, the same thing we have in marketing, right? You have your dimension campaign people. You have your operations people. So are there HR operations the same way we have marketing operations, right? That is more around the technology stack, around the reporting, around the analysis, around the database, around all these things, right? So all this area, I think there are all kinds of opportunities on the HR side to mature, and completely agree on the adoption.

Sophie Leguillette: We went through the same thing on the marketing side, and that makes me think as a piece of advice for our listeners and something that I still remember very clearly of implementing, moving from traditional to digital marketing at the time, that's the way we referred to it, right, for an organization not that far back, large organization. So bringing in that transformation, it implied training people, right? Change management, how we did work, but also finding a champion, right? I had a young man on my organization who was very enthusiastic, a great learner, a quick learner, wanted to take on everything, and so he adopted the technology, did it, and I always have this example. He figured out, "Okay, this is how it works to use one of those smart automation tools to build and nurture a campaign."

Sophie Leguillette: So he built it once, and it was flying from Atlanta to Irvine, Southern California one time. He came out, got off the plane. He's like, "Hey, I now figured out how I can just use that template and just create my next campaign. In less than an hour, right, I had created my next campaign." He had figured out what marketing automation could also do for him as a marketer and make him much more efficient, which was really fascinating because then he shared with all these colleagues and all these team members, and that's how we actually got people to start using it, right? Because they start seeing one of them being so excited and shining and being really excited, basically excited about what he was able to.

Roopesh Nair: Yeah, and I really like that point about the champion you made, Sophie. Where I have seen this consistently in our customers and even when I was on the other side at marketing, adoption happens only when you have champions, are champions inside the organization, and you see success, success at two places, and everyone wants to then follow that success. So the champions then need to kind of drive that success, and otherwise it never happens. I think, yeah, change is very difficult.

Debbie Tuel: It is.

Roopesh Nair: Champions do drive the change, because success helps change, right?

Debbie Tuel: Yes, and we've had a lot of our guests come on and talk about the fact that they're one-man shops at their organizations. But what they're able to do is really prove out the use case and then bring it to the team and say, "Look at the results that we've driven. Let's do more of this. Let's invest more in this." I think that then takes us back to the business case, right? So it all kind of ties together.

Debbie Tuel: Sophie, I love what you touched on. I want to kind of dive a little bit deeper into it. You talked about the fact that one of the bold predictions of what you're seeing is that the roles are changing. So it's less about the technology, and it's more about the roles and the fact that you're seeing marketing operations and you're seeing lead generation and all of that become part of marketing. So yes, the brand work is a piece of it, but the activation is really what is dramatically changing within marketing. We are seeing that slower on the recruiting side, but you at Symphony Talent have the BDRs or business development reps, that lead generation piece. That sits under marketing, not sales. Let's talk about that a little bit, because I think that plays so many parallels into recruiting, and as people are starting to think about structuring their teams, again, how can we cross-learn here?

Sophie Leguillette: Yeah, exactly. That's a great question, actually, on that side, because especially that lead development, sales development, however, you want to call them, business development, yeah, this is one of this organization and I've seen in my career. They're in marketing. They're in sales. Where do they go? I think at the end of the day, it depends on where the organization is on its maturity cycle, right, for that specific area of recruiting in this case. Then so where are you at there? What are you trying to do, right? Are you trying to address the top of the funnel? Are you trying to address the bottom of the funnel, right? Then if you are trying to be, "Okay, I want to address the top of the funnel. I want to build my pipeline," and so on, then I would argue that you move them into that part of the organization, the marketing side in this case.

Sophie Leguillette: So I think it is really depending on where you are on the maturity cycle, right, and where you feel as an organization the alignment is needed, right? Because it's all about alignment through down that funnel, right? So everybody knows and knows what to expect from the other, and it's very important that it's that funnel. At the end of the day, everybody's responsible for that funnel or that pipeline. It's not just sales, right? Or it's not just the person-

Debbie Tuel: Marketing.

Sophie Leguillette: ... who is going to close on the HR side, right, that's going to get that person onboard. It's everybody, and everybody's aligned on, "This is what we are trying to accomplish. We understand conversion rates," right?

Debbie Tuel: Yep.

Sophie Leguillette: "From there, we understand where we're trying to go from. We have a specific objective that we're trying to reach." I'm sure in HR they'll get the same thing we have, right? Between sales and marketing and between SDRs.

Debbie Tuel: Some finger-pointing.

Sophie Leguillette: So the goal, and we're still working on that on marketing, right, is to really ... and that's where I've really enjoyed developing partnership along that funnel, right? With sales, with business development. It's like, "No, I'll show you everything on my side. You show me everything on your side. We have one common goal."

Roopesh Nair: Yeah, and I love what you just said again, Sophie, about the outcome, the goal, right? So at the end of the day, what your outcome is around marketing is you need to build a bunch of opportunities, which sales can go and then close, right? I've had this conversation multiple times in the last seven years around what is recruitment marketing, and a lot of my competitors call it differently as compared to how we think about it, right? It's fair. Everyone has their own definition of what recruitment marketing means. But when you really think about the outcome of recruitment marketing, right, which is what is the outcome of recruit marketing, I should be able to get a lot of qualified people in front of my recruiters as quickly as possible so that they can close those qualified people fast so that you can get highly qualified people in the organization really quickly in the cheapest way possible, right?

Roopesh Nair: So that's basically the outcome you're looking for. Then define what recruitment marketing means for your organization. Does it mean recruitment advertising? Does it mean CRM? Does it mean programmatic? Does it mean carry websites or all of the above? Probably the answers depends on who you are as an organization, but at the end of the day, think about your outcome. That's what the outcome is, and everything which is driving towards that outcome should mean recruitment marketing, and which includes sourcing in many organizations, because in a high-touch ...

Roopesh Nair: Think about physicians hiring when we talk about healthcare recruiting, right? You're trying to hire physicians, and recruitment marketing involves high-touch sourcing in that case, because you have to basically talk to lots of physicians right from the time they even just completed their degree to be able to really close them through that, right? So what does recruitment marketing mean is very dependent on what the organization's goals are, and the outcome from recruitment marketing at the end of the day defines what recruitment marketing means. But it's a very good parallel you drew on the marketing side from does sales mean and what does marketing mean and trying to ensure you're on the same page on that.

Debbie Tuel: We have so much good content and conversation here, and we are running close on time. So I do want to give you a chance, though, Roopesh, because you said that there are things that marketing can learn from recruiting, and you said you want to dig into that. So let's quickly follow up on what ... I think we can all learn from each other. I think that's what we've gotten out of here. But there's something you wanted to dig in on. What is it?

Roopesh Nair: I'll quote one of my customers, and I think, yeah, one of our customers in retail side. I was like, "Hey, you know? What we can generate" ... I got in as marketing technologist early on. It's probably late 2015 or early 2016, and I made a comment like, "Yeah, I can get you a lot of leads, and you know what? I can do programmatic and CRM and all this cool stuff and generate a lot of leads so that he can close." He's like, "I don't really want a lot of leads."

Debbie Tuel: "Bring me two good ones, two good ones."

Roopesh Nair: Yeah. "I actually want less people in this area," and that's what actually a lot of those conversations, what led to some of the changes we did in our programmatic platform, where it's a lot based on how the pacing of the leads are and stuff like that and quality of the leads and things like that, but separate conversation at some point when I nerd out about programmatic advertising. But the point here is in marketing, it has always been about the number of leads, honestly, historically. In recruitment and in HR, it's been about the quality, a lot more about the quality and the quantity. My customers have always challenged me on that around, "Show me the quality."

Roopesh Nair: I think marketing is learning now, right? As SaaS, especially in SaaS marketing, right, where we kind of start thinking about customer churn and how much time are we really spending on closing a customer and how many customers are really falling off the cycle and stuff like that and we think about the cost to the organization, we as marketing teams and even SaaS organizations are realizing that there needs to be product-led marketing, which kind of ensures that every lead which is coming in is high-quality. I want less leads sometimes and ensure I focus on the quality of the lead much more than the number of leads. That's something I think marketing can learn a lot from what HR has been spending years, I would say, kind of perfecting in this field.

Debbie Tuel: Absolutely.

Sophie Leguillette: Yeah. I'm hearing you.

Debbie Tuel: All right. Yeah. Sophie's learning. She's soaking it in. All right. Time for our rapid-fire. This means that we're going to ask some quick questions. We need some insightful information to pass along to our listeners. So first question, who is the one person that you think that everyone should follow? So who do you get your best information from, whether it's on Twitter or LinkedIn or other channels? I'll start with Sophie.

Sophie Leguillette: All right. I'd say, generally speaking, Elon Musk. I think this guy is very controversial, brilliant, game-changer. You can take whatever you want. I think his mind is brilliant, and full disclosure, I'm a Tesla owner.

Roopesh Nair: That is so funny, Sophie, because we should have prepped better for this rapid-fire. I was going to say Elon Musk, too, and I also own a Tesla, full disclosure. But I'll also give you a plug for Debbie. I think people should be listening to Debbie's podcast to learn more from you.

Debbie Tuel: Oh. All right. You just went bonus points, bonus points. Now, you'll get extra bonus points if it's company Teslas for everyone. Okay. What is the one book or podcast that you would recommend from this past year? Sophie, go.

Sophie Leguillette: Because I live in California, I think it was fascinating by what was happening with the trial of Elizabeth Holmes, former CEO of Theranos. So The Dropout was a great podcast, where you got all kinds of perspectives from outsiders, just fascinating more on the human side. [crosstalk 00:39:42].

Debbie Tuel: Yeah, absolutely. I am huge fan of The Dropout, and yes, I would second that. It gives you not just a great insight to different human psyches, but also the tech space-

Sophie Leguillette: It does.

Debbie Tuel: ... and what's happening in the tech space and what can go wrong. Roopesh?

Roopesh Nair: Yeah, and I'm not a big reader, but I do listen to a lot of podcasts, and honestly of the podcasts, and I probably stole some of the concepts as I was talking about it today, too. There's a podcast called Product-Led, which kind of talks a lot about how companies have used product-led growth to drive growth inside organizations. I think just anyone, honestly, both on the HR side, on the business side, I think benefit a lot from kind of just listening to that and talking about different angles of product-led growth podcast. So there's a podcast called Product-Led Growth, I think.

Debbie Tuel: All right. Go check out Product-Led. We will of course tag and link all of these in our notes. We ask each of our guests to ask the next guest a question. So let's start with Julia's question from last week. Julia Levy joined us from Comscope, and she asked you guys, "How has your event strategy changed in 2020 based on the happenings and the pandemic for 2022?"

Sophie Leguillette: To me, I look at 2022 definitely hopefully a year of transition back to something that ... The new normal. I definitely think there's definitely a thirst for everybody to get together in person, but I think there's a lot of learnings from what we gain, right, on being able to interact in a virtual manner. So I think 2022 is a year of transition. I think there's an interesting aspect to that where everybody says, "Oh yeah, yeah, let's get back together." When it comes time to do it, I'm curious to see how people are truly ready, and I think it starts by asking ourselves, "Okay, are we ready to get on a plane, to get into an event room, a large room, small room with a bunch of strangers, if you want to say, for a day or two? Is our teams ready to do that?" I think that's the first question you need to ask yourself.

Sophie Leguillette: Then everybody has their own framework, right, of how they evaluate the level of risk, and there's no right or wrong answer. So I think it's something that we have to be very conscious of, and I'm curious to see what's going to happen this year. But I think it's a year of transition, and I think beyond that, I really look forward as how companies are ... how we are able to mix the in-person and the virtual, but definitely, there will be a return to the in-person event with a virtual component.

Debbie Tuel: Yeah. So much like everything else in the last two years, fluidity and hybrid.

Sophie Leguillette: this year. Hopefully [crosstalk 00:42:52].

Roopesh Nair: Yeah, in everything, the experiential angle becomes much more important now. As I know Debbie, you know, and we were one of the early folks to kind of quickly pivot when we had that 2020 scenario, and we kind of transformed to a virtual experiential conference. Then I think the whole experiential aspect I think would remain, but now how do you create that experience in a virtual local kind of setup as we think about the future is going to be one of the interesting challenges.

Debbie Tuel: All right. Our next guest, we've got Brian Summer coming on in two weeks. Roopesh, what one question do you have for him?

Roopesh Nair: Yeah, considering Brian spends a lot of time analyzing technology and adoption of technology is a hot topic for me, honestly, kind of having seen adoption in marketing side and now wanting to drive more adoption in recruiter marketing side, my one direct question would be around how do you as an analyst and as an influencer and as a person who kind of gets involved in deciding and helping customers and also helping people like us think about adoption, how do you really put that in the center of your evaluation strategy, of your analysis strategy as you think about HR technology and buying HR technology or reevaluating HR technology?

Debbie Tuel: All right. Brian, think about it. You've got two weeks to. Last one, where can people find you? If they want to hear more from Sophie, if they want to hear more from Roopesh, where can they find you? We'll start with you, Sophie.

Sophie Leguillette: Easy. On LinkedIn.

Debbie Tuel: Roopesh?

Roopesh Nair: Definitely LinkedIn. Pretty active there. Of course, our Symphony Talent channel, LinkedIn channel, and I think we put a lot of thought leadership content there. We're big on that, including, of course, ensuring that people like Debbie get the space and we can amplify that. So yeah, I think LinkedIn and all the Symphony Talent channels, including the Symphony Talent website. I have a big picture of mine there, by the way.

Debbie Tuel: Well, thank you so much for joining us. It is always fun to talk about the cross-sections of marketing and recruiting and how we can build the business case for executives and what we're seeing. It has been a joy to have you both on. For those of you that are listening, please go follow us. Subscribe. Let us know your thoughts on the content that we're delivering to you guys, and until next week, thanks so much.

Roopesh Nair: Thanks, everyone.

Sophie Leguillette: Thanks, Debbie. Thanks, everyone.

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Check out more details on the Great Resignation & Rehire, CRM Tech Adoption and the new ideas for recruitment marketing in the 2022 Ideabook -- all available at: https://www.symphonytalent.com/en/resources/