The RM Podcast: Operation Military Hiring

Symphony Talent
May 17 ․ 61 min read

Summer is right around the corner, May is here and Memorial Day weekend is just weeks away. May also means it is Military Appreciation Month.

In tribute to those who have served and those that have sacrificed so much for our freedom, we are going to focus our episode on how, as Talent Acquisition professionals, we can do our part to support our forces and help our military transition and thrive in the corporate workforce. 

So, we’re talking shop on how to embed a military hiring strategy with our client Peraton. This company works with the military in what they do and how they do it—focusing on the importance of understanding how employer brand initiatives are core to the growth and success of their business.

In today’s economy, you have to have an authentic brand to attract talent and reduce turnover. Our guest, Ben Ingham, Director, Brand and Marketing, Peraton, gives us his advice on connecting your employer brand to business outcomes to drive the cross-departmental partnership you need to move forward.

 

Debbie Tuel:

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the RM podcast. I'm your host Debbie Tuel, and I hope that you are ready for an all new lineup of experts who are itching to step out of the parameters of traditional recruitment and talent acquisition speak and get real on what it means to recruit on a worker economy. And quite frankly, an upside down world. Let's dig in together. Summer is right around the corner. May is here. I can feel the warmth in the air and Memorial day is just weeks away. In honor of military appreciation month, we are focusing today's episode on how we as TA professionals can do our part to support our forces and help our military transition and thrive in the civilian workforce.

Debbie Tuel:

Today, I am honored to be joined by Ben Ingham director of brand and marketing at Peraton on how they enlist best practices for military hiring Peraton works with the military in what they do and how they do it. Focusing on the importance of understanding how employer brand initiatives are core to the growth and success of their business. Listen in to discover how Peraton attracts veterans with a promise for a simple transition and professional development opportunities. Ben, welcome.

Ben Ingham:

Thank you. Excited to be here.

Debbie Tuel:

We have quite a few of our listeners, in fact, I would say the majority of our listeners come from a recruiting background, but are very interested in the brand and the marketing aspect of talent acquisition. I started in the recruitment marketing space about 15 years ago when it was still pretty much in its emphasis, as people were just really posting on job boards and their brand consisted of what does their page on CareerBuilder or Monster or Yahoo! HotJobs look like. And this is really evolved over the last 15 years, but more so in the last five to 10 years we've seen this infusion of brand and marketers coming into recruiting and really shifting the way that employers think about going to market for their employment brand. I would love for you to share a little bit about your background and how you got into recruitment marketing and employment brand.

Ben Ingham:

So I got into recruitment marketing in kind of an unusual way. So I started my career in business development at Northrop Grumman. So a government contractor like Peraton and moved my way into operations, understanding how the company worked. Really went, kind of went through all the paces there, then moved into communications. And this was at the dawn of social media for businesses and for really government contractors within aerospace and defense. And it was an exciting time. And I had the opportunity to go to the corporate office at Northrop at the time and start shaping and growing the employer brand that they had. And that was the first dose of employer branding and recruitment marketing, and it stuck.

Ben Ingham:

And so while I am a kind of a full scope advertising guy, the recruitment marketing has stuck with me. It's especially within our industry within government contracting. It's an incredibly important thing. Our people are really our most vital asset. They are the people that are helping run critical government programs around the world and recruitment marketing. I mean, this is how we are pulling people in and keeping them here and helping us as an employer stand out above everyone else. So, that's how I got to recruitment marketing, and it's become really a big differentiator for the company and has been something that continues to be a real just force multiplier for us.

Debbie Tuel:

And Ben, you've got a unique situation where Peraton to the average American is probably not a very well known brand and a lot of the work that you do, you can't just come right out and talk about, is that right?

Ben Ingham:

Right. That's right. Yeah. Like I said, we work for the government and there are things we can't talk about. There are things of course we can talk about sometimes, but there is a lot of restriction around that. And we recruit from a very specific candidate set with a very discerning set of skills and specific set of skills. And it is a not something we don't have a product you can buy on the shelf. That's one thing we often say, but at the same time we see our jobs and our careers as products in and of themselves. There is something that we're selling there. While you can't buy our things that we do on the shelf wherever you shop, you can apply it to work here.

Ben Ingham:

And so we look at our jobs as products and we look at them just as any marketer would at a company that's selling products on the shelf, in terms of their attributes. How are they packaged? What is the value assigned to these things? You look back to the marketing mix of basic things here about how you market a product. And we apply that same line of thinking to our jobs and you all have been a great partner. Symphony Talent has been helping us get to where we are and take us even further.

Debbie Tuel:

And everyone here is listening to us have this conversation. And so we are definitely going to have to follow this conversation up with a blog post and some information that actually gives our listeners visuals to the work that you guys are doing, because it is phenomenal and it is definitely differentiated and it is exciting. And for a lot of our listeners, they would love to have that differentiated, exciting brand to take to market. And they have a really hard time building the business case, to get the budget to build that out. Can you share with us a little bit about the early steps, not the byproduct of what you've done, but how did you get there for those that are listening that are like, "I want to do something like this." How did you get to the point where you said, "Okay, we've got buy-in from our executives, that this is something we should invest in, and this can be really cool."

Ben Ingham:

Great question. You have to always connect it to a business outcome. You can't take this as an intrinsically good exercise. It's not. I mean, this is business and you have to view yourself as a... Whether you like myself in communications, or if you're in talent acquisition, you have to view yourself coming to the table. When you're talking about employer branding, recruitment, marketing, that this is something that's going to grow the bottom line. This is something that is going to make the business stronger. And you have to actually show that it's not just say it will, let's talk about specifically what it will do. Will it get more candidates in the door? Will we be able to validate that somehow? Will we... Because the ephemeral qualities of branding are important.

Ben Ingham:

The things that it does, the personality that it exudes, that stuff is very important, but making a mistake, the reasons why companies brand, it's not just... It's not only to have a positive reputation, that's a huge element of it, but it's to fuel growth in some way, or to fuel some outcome. Perhaps not growth, maybe there's something else, but the whole job of us as, as communicators, as marketers, is to help grow that business. Is to help create as wide of a funnel, as possible to get as many customers down the line and as many candidates in the pipeline as possible. And I think that's the ultimate thing. You have to connect the need to brand to an outcome. And when you identify that outcome, I think that's really how you get your budget. That's how you get your support. That's how you get your involvement from other people, because they're going to see how that outcome could help them.

Debbie Tuel:

Any chance that you could make this tangible. What was the business outcome that you tied it to? And my follow up question, and maybe I should ask it after you've answered, but my follow up question is who did you work with internally to build that business case out?

Ben Ingham:

Yeah. So how do we make it tangible? So the first question. So we made it tangible by looking at... You pointed out we were an early brand. We a new brand one that didn't have a lot of, probably very little awareness at the very beginning. This was years ago. We knew that was a problem. We knew that the low level of brand awareness did nothing to help us get more candidates in the door. People want to of course have a great workplace. One that stands up for what they believe in that has a mission that they can identify with that has of course solve other things, compensation, benefits, but we needed to have some identity out there to market. We needed something beyond a name, something to stand on, some kind of thing to put our people.

Ben Ingham:

As we knew that for our business. We don't make big tanks and planes and things that some other companies and competitors do make. So the people are our greatest asset, like I said before. So we have to make sure that our people are having a strong, external identity to align with so that was at the very beginning. That was really that outcome. We needed to have that thing to latch onto. What was your second question?

Debbie Tuel:

No, this is... No, I love it. My second question, my follow up to that is who did you work with internally? And I'm actually glad that we're diving into this because a lot of what you're talking about really ties into your corporate culture and into your company mission and things that are not always owned by talent acquisition brand.

Ben Ingham:

Absolutely. Yeah. So we built a very strong bridge with talent acquisition. Like I said, I don't sit in talent acquisition. I'm not a recruiter. I've never been one, I'm a marketer. Advertising guy that's what I am. Creative guy, that's it. And we build a really strong bridge. We saw an opportunity where there was a business challenge of needing to attract more people to the company. We found a solution of employer branding, because I knew it worked. And then we found a partner who could help us build it out and create a kind of data infrastructure and our media infrastructure around it to get that talent in the door and then prove it. We then built partnerships with other groups within the company, finance. Tracking actual hires to revenue figures. We built partnerships with business development in our growth office to help match up recruitment marketing efforts with business pursuits and things like that.

Ben Ingham:

So, and it human resources now. So we have, of course there's a huge tie over with human resources. Of course, being the parent organization to talent acquisition in helping shape that culture, in helping get those insights that could inform human capital offerings and things like that could make us an even better place to work. So it's a story of partnership. This isn't a single entity doing this. And I think that's the biggest thing when you think about brand. I mean, you look at, and I'll give you one other thought here. Brand is something that is at the core of business. Big companies that are really focused on growth, understand the value of this. Sure there are ways to not do it. There are ways some exceptions to this rule, but the really big companies, the high growth companies across different sectors and different industries, they know their brand inside and out.

Ben Ingham:

They know their employer brand inside and out. They tightly align the two corporate brand employer brand. it is such a business asset, a force multiplier, like I said earlier. And in order for it to really be seen as that central thing, those partnerships are really needed. So in terms of who we build partnerships with, it's everybody, and it's always evolving. We keep building more and more and what we find is that really, it's needed. I mean, it is something... It is refreshing when we're building these bridges across different parts of a company, because getting bigger and bigger with time, there is the tendency for some companies to become so piped and for people to kind of go off in their own areas and do what they do. That's not the case for us. We've always made sure that we've knocked down those silos and built bridges so that we know what's going on and we're building the same thing together.

Debbie Tuel:

I think that is so key. And actually an ongoing conversation I think, is happening in talent acquisition in recruiting is, where does the brand sit? Where does the employment brand sit? The corporate brand, everybody knows where that sits, but where does employment brand sit? And I think it's different for every organization. I think it's eye opening when you hear how different companies' kind of look at it and structure it, but you are absolutely right. It's got to be a cohesive go to market strategy that involves everybody in all of these departments that are the brand and for you to your point, your people are your brand.

Ben Ingham:

Right. I mean, and look lets think about this another way too. The brand, everything has a home. Most things have a home. Branding is a function of marketing. I mean, that is a... There are people who are trained in this to do that, but it is something that has to be made livable by all those people in all those other areas. It has to be made in more than just a microcosm of a company. One area where it can't be translated easily and other people can't identify with it and take it to the streets in their own way. That's what's been really successful about our brand is that it was a very human brand to begin with.

Ben Ingham:

And so it was one where people got it and they... Even if they're not involved at all in these kind of branding exercises, they take do, they can't be done. And they're talking about on social media, they're talking about it with their customers, their friends, they are proud to wear on their shirt. It really has been a good case study in how to do this. And I think it is... Like I said, I guess what's stomp the point here about that partnership element. That's really...

Debbie Tuel:

It's worth stomping the foot on. It's a really important one. And we are, as I mentioned in our opening, we are celebrating military appreciation month this month. And being a government contractor, the military is really key to you guys on two sides of the business, one, they are your client. And two, I would assume they're a pretty good resource for you guys in recruiting, as far as the type of talent that you're trying to bring in. How does that impact the way that you build out your brand? And I think coming from Northrop, this probably something you've been embedded in for quite a while, not just at Peraton.

Ben Ingham:

Yeah. I mean, they're the transitioning military the military veterans who are leaving the service and coming out into the private sector, they are invaluable. They understand the mission they've been there. They understand teamwork. They understand how to collaborate. They are an invaluable asset for Peraton and for our whole industry and for any company. I mean, there are qualities that you are taught in the military and skills that frankly just aren't taught in the private sector. And they're very valuable to have. So, we approach it by creating a very favorable environment internally to them, a very one that helps them navigate the big change that's going on as they're leaving the military, because it is a very different environment is not the same thing, especially now that our company is mostly all remote.

Ben Ingham:

We do have of course, people on customer sites when as needed. But that change, that transition is something we've really focused on. We have an employee resource group focused on veterans. We have a number of programs that we participate in from a government level. Of which we received a lot of awards for our support of the military and of transitioning veterans over to the private sector. So they're incredibly high.

Debbie Tuel:

I actually haven't thought about that. Ben and I am shocked that it's actually just now being brought up into my sphere. My brother spent 25 years in the Navy. He transitioned out about three years ago, but I, when I say he transitioned out, I kind of laugh as I say it because he couldn't navigate that transition. Or I shouldn't say couldn't, but he ended up going into private defense. I think that is still kind of in the same line of what he does, but I hadn't thought about the impact of the pandemic specifically for our veterans. And they're so used to the teamwork and being in teams and being around teams, that's got to be kind of isolating for them.

Debbie Tuel:

It's isolating for everybody. None of us really. I mean, I shouldn't say none of us people love working from home obviously, but a lot of us don't like the isolation that the pandemic has put on us and that's had to have a really big impact. Can you share a little bit more about what you guys are doing and what types of programs I think we're all struggling with, how do we create that community within this virtual environment, but you've guys got to be seeing it a lot heavier than we are.

Ben Ingham:

Yeah. It is a work in progress. And I think that's been one of the great parts that about being part of this company is that we're... We've always been in the spirit of building and that we know we're building a company and it's not one that is just simply here and is parts are not immovable. And COVID threw a curve ball toward everybody. I mean, we were lucky enough because of what we do, we didn't have much of an impact during the pandemic. We're part of the national critical infrastructure and what I will say that we do a really good job of having a digital first company. So, from the bat or off the bat, we had everything, all of our enterprise tools were cloud based. So as soon as we had to go home work continued. For those who had to do, who were working on customer sites.

Ben Ingham:

They'd had a Herculean effort, moving stuff over to working remotely. Some of them have returned since then in being consistent with customer guidance. But when we make sure that we provide our employees with the right tools, the right IT infrastructure, we make sure we're always encouraging feedback. We have an engagement survey going out. We have a lot of management touchpoints, manager touchpoints, performance reviews, those type of things to encourage consistent conversations while people are a step removed from the office. And I think that it will continue to get more advanced in our approach as we keep living through this. I think no company has all of the answers. It's seeing what works. I mean, think about it. We were up until then. I mean, companies had... I don't even say they perfected the office, right. It was... Even, that was imperfect. So now it's another, a whole departure from that. And we're having to get smart on it and kind of advance our own practices at a very fast pace. So I've been proud of the progress we've made. I think it's been pretty impressive.

Debbie Tuel:

Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And I think for everybody, everybody's trying to figure out right now, what is that secret sauce? Is there a secret sauce and how do we acclimate to the new norm that we're all living in?

Ben Ingham:

On that I think there's some stuff that's not, let's say it's not, it doesn't have to be codified. It just needs to be lived. So traits like empathy understanding that people have other things going on in their life when they're at home, that they might not, they have had, might have been able to isolate a bit more while they're physically at an office before COVID. So understanding I mean, this really happened a lot in the early days of the pandemic. We're moving past that now, but I think that empathy is still really important. You don't know what's going on. You aren't seeing people every day. So you can't really get the full story. Even if you have stuff like video meetings and Zoom meetings and all those things, you can't sense all that.

Ben Ingham:

So it's always approaching conversations with the sense of empathy that something else might be going on. And some that understanding and at the same time the other part of my job is creative. So, the creativity side is, I don't think it is any more difficult virtually. I think there's... It's just that you to be creative and be creative now. You have to rubbers meeting the road here a little bit, and there's always the value to having in person meetings. I agree. But I think there's also tremendous value in having, always being in "the lab." Being here in your own place, where you can quickly collaborate with people and touch on things and create things as needed. So, I see there's pros and cons of both sides of that.

Debbie Tuel:

Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of that, being on the brand side, being on the creative side, we have been for the last two years in a state of constant change. And oftentimes we see employers go through big brand projects that sit stagnant. How have you guys been able to build and execute on a brand project, but keep it up to date with the constant state of change that we're in?

Ben Ingham:

Yeah. Well, I mean, you... It's kind of interesting because when you're in those decision points, when you're at those decision points of, should we do it or should we not do it? There's generally that I've experienced, there's two sides of that coin. One is do it because the world's going to keep changing or don't do it because we don't know what's going to happen. My opinion is if you have an informed... If you're really understanding and you're looking out at the broader landscape and you're doing your research and you are consulting with the right people and you have set up your plan, not just in terms of the perfect plan, but one that is driven by measurable goals and objectives. Then I think that's what ultimately drives things because those goals and objectives, they shouldn't be dependent or contingent upon a pandemic.

Ben Ingham:

There are growth goals. There are things that are needed regardless of a pandemic existing or not existing. You need to move the business forward. And from a brand perspective, I think... I mean, that's connected to that. If we're doing a brand project, there's an outcome there that is measurable. It's not just a... Like I was saying earlier, it's not just a kind of a fanciful project we're taking on because we're tired of what we have. It's something which does happen occasionally. You see that in some places, what's the old saying a client gets tired of their own work first. And I think that you have to ground it in those goals objectives, you have to always operate on an outcome and then that guides your decision. If your outcome is dependent upon a pandemic or will be disrupted by the pandemic, maybe you should wait. But if it isn't, why would you wait?

Debbie Tuel:

It's a really good point. And as we've all learned in this constant state of change, the world keeps moving forward. Business keeps moving forward. We might have fits and starts. We might have disruptions, but we've got to figure out how to work through those disruptions and keep going. And that I think has been really evolving and eyeopening experience for a lot of people. And we have seen it derail some companies. We've seen companies that have gone from a much more proactive, strategic viewpoint to a... We've got to fix the burning bridges and we can no longer... It's hard to do both of those at the same time. It's really hard to look and focus on the long term when you're putting out constant fires. And so we've seen a lot of organizations get derailed. I'd be curious if that's been your experience or how you guys have worked through that.

Ben Ingham:

Well, that's something that you do have to really manage. And it's a little... I like that nuance you added there, the need to go incredibly tactical, incredibly fast, absent any strategy or guidance or direction is dangerous. I think that there's two schools of thought on this. I think depending on who you ask, some people say, "Well, that's fine because it got me X." Well, did it also get you Y and Z? Did it get you closer to the bigger thing that is actually worth a lot more, dollars or whatever you're measuring it in or did it just satisfy the need for today? And so I... There is an incredible need to be strategic and that's a buzzword. I get it. But what does that mean? Again, going back to executing on goals and objectives, and those objectives are not these silly things that you put out there and are made up little thing.

Ben Ingham:

They're actually measurable quantifiable time driven, or time down things that you will affect in the world to help your brand. And if you're talking about brand development and stuff, I mean, that's a little different, but again, there's objectives as that. There's a goal in refining a brand, defining a brand, asserting a brand, anything but I... So I do think that yes, people have... Some brands have done have dipped a little too far into the incredibly tactical route. There has to be a counterbalance on strategic planning, strategic thinking, because at the end of the... Maybe not the end of the day, but at the end of the year, you're evaluated on performance on the big picture, not just the micro.

Debbie Tuel:

Yeah. And honestly, to bring this back to the military, I think that's why that talent is so valuable in the civilian workforces because they have been trained to do exactly that. If they are at war, there is a big picture. And even though you may be losing those daily battles, they understand what the long term vision is and what their goals are and how to handle minute by minute disruptions while still driving towards that end goal. And you're right, those are sometimes not skills that we are taught, that when we infuse other skill sets into the business, it can make us more productive and something that you guys service the government sector. So I think it's a little bit more natural for your business. But I think that it's something that all businesses and all practitioners that are listening today can take from and hopefully start to bring more of them into their businesses.

Ben Ingham:

Absolutely.

Debbie Tuel:

Ben, I could keep talking forever. This has been such a great conversation. We need to get into our last segment of the day. Before we do, anything else that you'd love to add or want to make sure that our listeners take away from today's conversation.

Ben Ingham:

Well, like you, I probably could keep talking for the rest of the day. This has been great conversation. I would say we're in this world where your head's down a lot. It continues to be down. We just mentioned the tactical effort. I think that there needs to be... People should always think about building those partnerships to create a stronger brand. Brand is an asset that some companies really value. Some companies don't understand. Some people don't understand. And when you start to pivot that and you start to make the brand, not something that is limited to things like your font and your color and your logo, but actually make it something that is that kind of vision of the company, that kind of, that you just talked about, what are you driving toward?

Ben Ingham:

Well, the brand is kind of a roadmap of sorts. That is the thing you're striving for on a daily basis to live up to this brand. And I think good brands are those that really understand their place in the world. And that drive that place in the world, that understanding of what that is and the value they provide to people in their own employee base. They're making sure their employees understand that too so that's what I'd say. I'd say that if people take nothing else away from this it's that brand is not something that's just this thing stuck on a shelf. It is at the core of your business. It's at the core of everything. We buy things in the store based on branding, whether that's a brand name or a generic product. There's brand attributes across the board that drive decisions, purchasing decisions that drive employment decisions.

Ben Ingham:

And do you want to work somewhere because it might look like this or seem like this, or maybe that's a bad perception, maybe their brand isn't that great. You don't want to work there. And I would say also be honest in your brand. You have to be very honest at it. You can't... don't lie. That seems to be... That's timeless advice. Don't lie. You can't mislead people in making up this fanciable brand that is not true. That's the other part. So create a believable brand that is built into every part of your business. That's what I'd say.

Debbie Tuel:

It is great advice and especially, I think in the recruiting world, it holds especially true because if you do lie and tell untruth and have an inauthentic brand, you end up with even higher turnover and struggle with retention. So it becomes very, very vital to the business because otherwise you are throwing out all of that wasteful time and money that you have spent on recruiting the talent and then it just hours really quickly. So yes. Great advice. So Ben, we are going to get into kind of our rapid fire questions, same questions that we ask all of our guests. What is the one book or podcast that you would recommend from this past year?

Ben Ingham:

I'm going to get in trouble if I say the title of it-

Debbie Tuel:

We can bleep you out though. Just say it.

Ben Ingham:

It may have an expletive in it. Yeah. Well, you can bleep me out?

Debbie Tuel:

You are allowed to curse. We are all adults listening to this.

Ben Ingham:

I deal with a conservative set. Maybe I shouldn't. I'll just say Do the bleeping Work. I'll just say that. Lowbrow Advice for High-Level Creativity. It's a book by... I'll just say GFDA. And I don't know if you read it's a phenomenal book. It's these a story about these guys that came together and they're designers and these creatives and they have just all of these lessons on creativity and how to cultivate it within yourself and with your team. And it's a great book and it gets you out of your comfort zone, which is great. And I'm such an opponent of comfort zones. They don't serve you any good so that's been the book that I've... I'm staring at it right now. Actually it's a great book that's on the shelf and informs a lot of ability.

Debbie Tuel:

So Do the expletive Work?

Ben Ingham:

Yes. Let's say that.

Debbie Tuel:

Got it. Who is the one person you think everyone should follow?

Ben Ingham:

Okay. So I got a couple. So I think that... So Gary Vaynerchuk for a few reasons. So he's one that I like. I like his delivery of kind of ways to work and I really like that. I like the hustle culture. I like all of that stuff. I think that there's something that it keeps you from feeling too corporate. I think that's something that we have to be appropriate in where we work and read the room, of course, but you should never deny who you are. You should never lose that kind of fire within you to help build the business faster, be a little scrappy. I think that's one of the great attributes of our companies that we're kind of scrappy. I mean, this is... We're a tenacious group of people that are going to grow as fast as we can and build the best company that we can.

Ben Ingham:

So I think he has a lot of good advice there and I'd say on the other side. So from a creative perspective, I'm going to go a little off, beat here. I'm going to say Timbaland. So Timbaland was super producer. He's done some incredible work over the pandemic. He launched Verzuz. Great. It's a great program. It's all online Verzuz TV. It's great. It's great to see that creativity. And it's great to see somebody take advantage of an opportunity like that. Build a lot of bridges, get a lot of people involved and engaged in music.

Debbie Tuel:

What is the next cool piece of technology that you're excited for?

Ben Ingham:

Yeah. So this is... There's definitely a lot of shine to this right now. You look at metaverse you look at, Web 3.0, all this stuff, but I do think that there's something core to this. Blockchain technology's been around for a long time. Actually Peraton was... We created the first blockchain-

Debbie Tuel:

Like ever?

Ben Ingham:

... That was a... The first blockchain was created back in-

Debbie Tuel:

Knowledge drop. [inaudible 00:33:23] Boom did not know that.

Ben Ingham:

... back in the '90s. So it, long time ago, we have some content actually coming out about that in a little while, but we did create... So that technology is really core to the future. So I think that the blending of the physical and the digital world is people are talking about that. That's going to be interesting. I'm really interested in the seamless integration. So to seeing things like RayBan stories, the smart glasses that came out, we've seen some of this before with other companies. And jury's still out on if RayBan's going to succeed or fail with meta. But I think that whole... The attempt to make things as integrated into our life, as the way a camera on the phone is integrated now is appealing. And at the same time is this even the level of integration we'll get a phone.

Ben Ingham:

Maybe that's not even that integrated, there might be something we're not even conceiving right now. That's even more integrated. Some people might call it dystopian. I think it's very exciting. And at the same time though, I think that there's this... After that happens or while that's happening, I'm also excited to see the things that will be created to help create some balance and to create healthy use of this technology and of these platforms, because we've seen the consequences of overuse and of, or improper use. And I think it's going to be really interesting to see kind of like you think about mint and personal capital, what they did for personal finance and helping people understand their finances a bit better. Same thing on this kind of digital life metaverse Web 3.0 side is understanding that industry that might pop up here to think about that balance so that's what I'm excited about.

Debbie Tuel:

I think there is a lot that could be tapped into there. And I agree. I think it's really interesting. It's fascinating what is coming and it will be really interesting to see the applications for it. Ben, if people want to know more about Peraton, more about the brand work that you do, want to connect with you and talk shop, how do they find you?

Ben Ingham:

Yeah. By all means, send me a note, find me on LinkedIn. So Ben Ingham and then Instagram IamBenIngham is the other one. So feel free. Send me a note, love a talk shot. And anything else that you want to talk about.

Debbie Tuel:

Awesome. Ben, thank you so much for joining us today. I know that we have added a ton of value for our listeners and for everybody joining us, we'll talk to you in a couple of weeks. Thanks, Ben.

Ben Ingham:

Thanks so much.

Debbie Tuel:

Thank you all so much for tuning in while you have your head down working on a project or maybe working out or simply vegging out. We love speaking with practitioners across industries to understand what work looks like on the front lines. We are all in this together and we truly want to make work better for all of us. If you want to continue listening, please remember to subscribe to the RM podcast for the latest and greatest in recruited marketing trends. Drop us a note. If you have any hot topics you'd like to hear more about and as always happy listening.

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